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Was WI ATG team overhyped?

Sunil1z

Sunil1z

International Regular
They haven’t won a Test series in Asia ( against IND, PAK , SL)since 1983 .
81BF06D5-AA1A-4B42-B6C6-B871EF573E03.jpeg

Their only 2 series victory came in Asia in 80s against Indian team which didn’t consist of any decent spinner and a good Pakistani side which had Qadir as the lone decent spinner . As soon as India got Hirwani ( he was 1 or 2 series wonder ) and Kumble ( ATVG spinner ) , WI failed to win series in IND . WI also struggled against Qadir in late 80s.

So was WI domination in 80s majorly due to absence of quality spinners in other side in 80s ?
How would they fare against good spin combos like Warne/Macgill , Ashwin/ Jadeja or Murali/ Herath ?
 
CricAddict

CricAddict

Cricketer Of The Year
I don't think Windies team is over-rated but I think Lance Gibbs is over-rated. To win in Asia, a good spinner is required.
 
S

subshakerz

International Coach
Sunil1z said:
They haven’t won a Test series in Asia ( against IND, PAK , SL)since 1983 .
View attachment 39781

Their only 2 series victory came in Asia in 80s against Indian team which didn’t consist of any decent spinner and a good Pakistani side which had Qadir as the lone decent spinner . As soon as India got Hirwani ( he was 1 or 2 series wonder ) and Kumble ( ATVG spinner ) , WI failed to win series in IND . WI also struggled against Qadir in late 80s.

So was WI domination in 80s majorly due to absence of quality spinners in other side in 80s ?
How would they fare against good spin combos like Warne/Macgill , Ashwin/ Jadeja or Murali/ Herath ?
Click to expand...
No. The WIs team had lost Holding and Garner by the mid 80s and was weaker hence they couldn't win in the SC.

Also, they beat Pak in 80 with an attack of Iqbal Qasim, Qadir and Imran.

With the entire pace quartet, they would win in SL and Aus, and at worst draw in India.
 
Line and Length

Line and Length

Cricketer Of The Year
The WI ATG Team is regarded as earlier than 1986. By the 90s the team was in decline with most of their ATG players retired yet you post results that include an era where WI Test cricket was struggling.
The ATG attack comprised the likes of Roberts, Holding and Garner with Marshall and Ambrose continuing the reputation of an ATG attack. Of these, Holding and Garner didn't play in Asia post 1983 While Roberts (2 Tests), Ambrose (4) and Marshall (6) had limited appearances.
Looking at the batting, any ATG WI side would include names such as Sobers, Headley and the 3 Ws. During the time of their much acclaimed attack there were players of the calibre of Greenidge, Fredericks, Lloyd, Kallicharran and of course Richards. Of these only Richards (7 Tests) and Greenidge (9) played in Asia post 1983. Of these, Greenidge last Asian appearance was 1990 while Richards' last tour there was 1988.
Why then have you, in your title, talk of the WI ATG team being "overrhyped" then posted results from series well after the peak of the great ATG teams?
 
Sunil1z

Sunil1z

International Regular
subshakerz said:
No. The WIs team had lost Holding and Garner by the mid 80s and was weaker hence they couldn't win in the SC.

Also, they beat Pak in 80 with an attack of Iqbal Qasim, Qadir and Imran.

With the entire pace quartet, they would win in SL and Aus, and at worst draw in India.
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Then we should limit their greatness till 85 . No need to say they were great throughout 80s and mid 90s .
 
H

HouHsiaoHsien

International 12th Man
Sunil1z said:
They haven’t won a Test series in Asia ( against IND, PAK , SL)since 1983 .
View attachment 39781

Their only 2 series victory came in Asia in 80s against Indian team which didn’t consist of any decent spinner and a good Pakistani side which had Qadir as the lone decent spinner . As soon as India got Hirwani ( he was 1 or 2 series wonder ) and Kumble ( ATVG spinner ) , WI failed to win series in IND . WI also struggled against Qadir in late 80s.

So was WI domination in 80s majorly due to absence of quality spinners in other side in 80s ?
How would they fare against good spin combos like Warne/Macgill , Ashwin/ Jadeja or Murali/ Herath ?
Click to expand...
Peak WI from around 79-84 wouldve easily won in SC, since they had in Lloyd, one of the greatest players of spin, and peak Viv and Kallicharan would’ve done very well too. Late 80s WI and post that was not the best WI. In 87-88, they only had Walsh.
 
Sunil1z

Sunil1z

International Regular
Line and Length said:
The WI ATG Team is regarded as earlier than 1986. By the 90s the team was in decline with most of their ATG players retired yet you post results that include an era where WI Test cricket was struggling.
The ATG attack comprised the likes of Roberts, Holding and Garner with Marshall and Ambrose continuing the reputation of an ATG attack. Of these, Holding and Garner didn't play in Asia post 1983 While Roberts (2 Tests), Ambrose (4) and Marshall (6) had limited appearances.
Looking at the batting, any ATG WI side would include names such as Sobers, Headley and the 3 Ws. During the time of their much acclaimed attack there were players of the calibre of Greenidge, Fredericks, Lloyd, Kallicharran and of course Richards. Of these only Richards (7 Tests) and Greenidge (9) played in Asia post 1983. Of these, Greenidge last Asian appearance was 1990 while Richards' last tour there was 1988.
Why then have you, in your title, talk of the WI ATG team being "overrhyped" then posted results from series well after the peak of the great ATG teams?
Click to expand...
I was talking about 80s side . If I had to include Sobers , I wouldn’t have applied filter from 80 onwards. Although I should have been more clear in OP.
 
CricAddict

CricAddict

Cricketer Of The Year
Line and Length said:
I believe Gibbs is under-rated. He held the world record for wickets taken, was the first spinner to take 300 wickets , had an exceptional economy rate (under 2rpo) yet hasn't warranted a mention in our current bowlers poll.
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I rate Gibbs as next to Kumble. Kumble too took a load of wickets like Gibbs.
 
Sunil1z

Sunil1z

International Regular
subshakerz said:
The quartet toured SC twice and won both times.

Yeah in India they didn't face a class spinner though but it was a strong batting side that was annihilated.
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I don’t rate Indian 80s side . They were at par with current Pak side.
 
Sunil1z

Sunil1z

International Regular
Indian side in 80s couldn’t win 17 consecutive Test . Current Pak side couldn’t win a Test against AUS , ENG , NZ last year and in 2022.
Both are contenders for worst side from Asia.
 
CricAddict

CricAddict

Cricketer Of The Year
Line and Length said:
... and I see Kumble as under-rated too. Both will probably find a place in our final rankings but deserve more consideration when discussing spinners.
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Yes their names should come soon. Both Kumble and Gibbs averaged closer to 30. It is very difficult for them to break into current top 30 who all average sub 25.
 
S

subshakerz

International Coach
Sunil1z said:
Indian side in 80s couldn’t win 17 consecutive Test . Current Pak side couldn’t win a Test against AUS , ENG , NZ last year and in 2022.
Both are contenders for worst side from Asia.
Click to expand...
That Indian side can't be penalised to that extent for not dominating compared to Paks non-performance.
 
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