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Viv vs hutton

Who is better


  • Total voters
    25

capt_Luffy

Hall of Fame Member
And what outside of that Australian attack? There's nothing apart from that attack.

Not to mention the first half of Hutton's career, actually the majority of his career was played on the deadest of pitches in the history of the game.

I love Hutton, more than most here, but he didn't consistently dominate great attacks more than Viv, no one did.

Qadir gets flack for his away record, as does (relatively) Imran, but despite how it was achieved, there's been very few greater challenge than facing those two in Pakistan during the late 70's into 80's.

Similarly Lillee and Thompson during the late 70's in Australia and Lillee on those drop in green pitches favored for WSC. Lillee and Thompson during that brief period was the most terrifying partnership in cricket up to that point in the game.

Hadlee at home too was no less efficient if obviously less physically threatening. He made NZ a challenge at home if not a full contender.

Peak Botham too was a menace and of course he was paired with Bob Willis.

Viv has a better record against great and ATG bowlers than almost anyone from among the BAB contenders. From memory (from Johan's posts) Sobers comes close, with Tendulkar and Lara being a bit behind. I honestly don't recall what Smith's are.

To say it was just solo acts and not combos, takes both ridiculously out of context.
There are two separate Aussie attacks. First with Tiger O'Reilly, then the one with Lindwall, Miller, Johnston, and co. And then there were the WI spinner duo of Ramadhin and Valentine on turners. Also Fazal Mahmood. On average, he faced tougher bowling in tougher conditions.

So in conclusion:

– Hutton played 31% of his tests against an elite ATG attack (post war Australia), Viv never played an attack of that tier.

- the pre war attack in 1938 Ashes also had Tiger, one of the three ATG spinners, Viv never played any ATG spinners

– Hutton played 50% of his Tests in the hardest era by far since the first world war, the "easy" era of his career was deleted by the second world war, he had 7 years in a somewhat easy era where he still made tough runs and then 6 years in the hardest era of the sport
 
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govinda indian fan

International Regular
It's but one.

He's very arguably, the greatest batsman against fast bowling in the history of the game.

He's had one of the top 3 peaks, if not the greatest in the games history.

His strike rate, ability to turn a game in a session and dominance over the ATG bowlers is his era just adds to it.
Sorry iam A big viv fan but Bradman must be greatest vs fast bowling. He averaged 60 vs bodyline and also you dont average 99 without being greatest vs fast bowling also bradman was quick scorer just like viv
 

govinda indian fan

International Regular
There are two separate Aussie attacks. First with Tiger O'Reilly, then the one with Lindwall, Miller, Johnston, and co. And then there were the WI spinner duo of Ramadhin and Valentine on turners. Also Fazal Mahmood. On average, he faced tougher bowling in tougher conditions.

So in conclusion:

– Hutton played 31% of his tests against an elite ATG attack (post war Australia), Viv never played an attack of that tier.

- the pre war attack in 1938 Ashes also had Tiger, one of the three ATG spinners, Viv never played any ATG spinners

– Hutton played 50% of his Tests in the hardest era by far since the first world war, the "easy" era of his career was deleted by the second world war, he had 7 years in a somewhat easy era where he still made tough runs and then 6 years in the hardest era of the sport
Viv faced Lillee hadlee,imran, botham and chandra and bedi might not be atg but were great spinners
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
There are two separate Aussie attacks. First with Tiger O'Reilly, then the one with Lindwall, Miller, Johnston, and co. And then there were the WI spinner duo of Ramadhin and Valentine on turners. Also Fazal Mahmood. On average, he faced tougher bowling in tougher conditions.

So in conclusion:

– Hutton played 31% of his tests against an elite ATG attack (post war Australia), Viv never played an attack of that tier.

- the pre war attack in 1938 Ashes also had Tiger, one of the three ATG spinners, Viv never played any ATG spinners

– Hutton played 50% of his Tests in the hardest era by far since the first world war, the "easy" era of his career was deleted by the second world war, he had 7 years in a somewhat easy era where he still made tough runs and then 6 years in the hardest era of the sport
First off no one is saying Hutton isn't BAB, though like Lara he's up there for me with an *.

The language there is disingenuous because the same way the 50's is up there with the 2017 to now, the other era is equally up there with the 2000's as the easiest era to bat. So no, it wasn't somewhat easy to bat. It was flat as all hell with a dearth of fast bowlers.

Yes, Hutton played against a great Australia attack, quality doesn't make up for quantity, and Vivian at one point in his career was consistently and only playing against attacks spear headed by ATGs. All greater than anything Hutton faced. And I also spoke about the difficulties presented by those overall attacks he faced and dominated unlike any other batsman, in score and strike rate.

Ramadhim and Valentine weren't as great as the Indian quartet, especially in India.

None of the names you mentioned comes close to the others Viv had to face. Yes, Lindwall, Miller and Johnston is arguable the 3rd best attack ever, but hain, half of those matches were on the flattest surfaces in history. And there is a drop off outside of that attack.

Then there's also where Viv almost doubles the s/r.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Sorry iam A big viv fan but Bradman must be greatest vs fast bowling. He averaged 60 vs bodyline and also you dont average 99 without being greatest vs fast bowling also bradman was quick scorer just like viv
Bradman is the greatest batsman ever, that's not even disputable.

But who are the fast bowlers that said reputation would have been built against? And on what pitches?
 

capt_Luffy

Hall of Fame Member
First off no one is saying Hutton isn't BAB, though like Lara he's up there for me with an *.

The language there is disingenuous because the same way the 50's is up there with the 2017 to now, the other era is equally up there with the 2000's as the easiest era to bat. So no, it wasn't somewhat easy to bat. It was flat as all hell with a dearth of fast bowlers.

Yes, Hutton played against a great Australia attack, quality doesn't make up for quantity, and Vivian at one point in his career was consistently and only playing against attacks spear headed by ATGs. All greater than anything Hutton faced. And I also spoke about the difficulties presented by those overall attacks he faced and dominated unlike any other batsman, in score and strike rate.

Ramadhim and Valentine weren't as great as the Indian quartet, especially in India.

None of the names you mentioned comes close to the others Viv had to face. Yes, Lindwall, Miller and Johnston is arguable the 3rd best attack ever, but hain, half of those matches were on the flattest surfaces in history. And there is a drop off outside of that attack.

Then there's also where Viv almost doubles the s/r.
1. That's untrue on both accounts, while 1930s was easier to bat, a large part of that is because of Bradman's insane output. And Hutton pre 1950 didn't have a lack of fast bowlers to face or play against, He played 10 Tests against an ATG attack, his hundred came on an extremely spicy wicket that had been rain damaged. Hutton constantly made runs on difficult wickets regardless of what the general condition was, his ability to do so won England a series in South Africa when he and Compton put a good total on a day 1 greentop with uneven bounce. The 1950s was also substantially lower scoring than 2017-Today.

2. Attacks "spearheaded" by ATGs don't really make the attack ATG, or else the current Indian attack would be ATG, you need a good supply of bowlers and good support and the attacks Viv faced didn't have that generally. Like, even the Tim Southee Led Kiwi attack was superior to Hadlee led NZ attack, Imran and Hadlee's attacks were mid as hell outside them, what Hutton faced against Australia is objectively a tier or two above anything Viv faced and there is no way to spin it.

3. Viv only played one series in India to Quartet and it was his debut series, it was impressive but Hutton won two games in West Indies against those two and had a genuine ATG tour of West Indies where he was the difference between 2-2 Draw and a 4-0 West Indies win. Viv had a great home series against them but Hutton also made 200 runs on a turner against that lineup when no one else crossed 45. All in all, It's about relative in spin department, Hutton having the advantage once you consider his series against Tiger.

4. Talking about flatness of pitches, Viv's huge series in England in 1976 came largely on dead pitches, especially the oval 289, should we remove those as well?

5. 2/5 of the matches were in 40s, and No 40s wasn't all roads, his performance at Sydney on a rain effected pitch and his stand of 30 when England were bowled out for 52 show that it wasn't. 3/5 of the tours were in the spiciest conditions possible IE 1950-51, 1953, 1954-55

6. Bad, Finishing early is never good, I'd want my opener to be a constant threat rather than one that fades after a while.

7. There's also the factor Hutton averages 6 points more, has opening tax while Viv batted behind Greenidge and Haynes, Hutton averaged 61 a year before his retirement while Viv averaged 52.5 a whole three years before his retirement.
 
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Sliferxxxx

State Vice-Captain
Viv dominating ATG pace attacks is the biggest myth about him. The only truly ATG level attack of his era was the one he didn't have to face. Having a good record against Lillee or Hadlee is fine but nothing exceptional when it's just individual ATG pacers and the attack around them is merely decent. The all round quality of the post war Australian attacks Hutton dominated was just better than anything viv faced.
You know what I can't say I necessarily disagree with you because truth be told, Viv very rarely faced a pace attack with more than one great. I can only think of Pakistan in 1986 and 1988 but of course Wasim was still developing. But I can treat him similar to the way we treat someone like Sehwag vs spin. Sehwag to my recollection never came up vs a spin attack with more than one great spinner but the times he faced the greats: Murali, Saqlain and Warne he dominated them (for the most part). Hence why some of us consider him the best vs spin. Viv did thusly; of course not all the time but often enough. For example, vs each of the great pacers from his time, Viv had at least one great series (average >50). Sure he had some failures along the way admittedly.
 

subshakerz

Request Your Custom Title Now!
I don't think it is necessarily contradictory that Viv is the greatest player of peak pace but that he didn't face an ATG pace attack
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
I don't think it is necessarily contradictory that Viv is the greatest player of peak pace but that he didn't face an ATG pace attack
So this is going to be a thing?

He faced AT English attacks with Willis and peak Botham, also Willis and Snow, an AT pace attack in Australia of Lillee, Thompson and Walker, and the Pakistani trio.
 

capt_Luffy

Hall of Fame Member
And like @ma1978 , you yourself rate Hutton over Smith and Headley, while Smith and Headley is infact rated on par with Viv even largely outside CW. Headley lost by 1 point to Viv in the Cricinfo AT World XI team
 

ma1978

International Regular
And like @ma1978 , you yourself rate Hutton over Smith and Headley, while Smith and Headley is infact rated on par with Viv even largely outside CW. Headley lost by 1 point to Viv in the Cricinfo AT World XI team
Smith and Hadley not rated on par with Viv. Viv widely seen as BaB. More so than anyone else

Kimber highly influenced by this forum.
 

capt_Luffy

Hall of Fame Member
Smith and Hadley not rated on par with Viv. Viv widely seen as BaB. More so than anyone else

Kimber highly influenced by this forum.
The average Cricketing fan is someone between 20-35 who only saw Sachin/Smith bat and has one of those two as BAB as far as Tests go, do not believe me? check any social media site or debate, and you'd see the vast majority of current Cricket fans don't know anything about Viv. It's mostly just old men in their late 50s or early 60s or higher who often talk about Viv and put him in the test BAB conversation. Generally, do a poll between every active Cricket fan today on who is better between Viv and Smith, and it won't be close frankly.

At the end of the day, smokes and mirrors aside, like we saw throughout history, with MaCartney, then with McCabe, then with Weekes and Harvey and then with Lillee, reputation fades but the achievements stand. As far as the facts go – Hutton made more runs, played better in tough conditions, performed better against a stronger attack, played with a weaker team, opened and faced the new ball consistently, did better away from home too and on and on. If Viv was better, it'd actually show in his achievements and numbers, and you can't even dissect Hutton's numbers in anyway where he falls behind Viv. There is no objective measure where Viv beats Hutton, in subjective measures such as a preference for faster run scoring, preference for his playing style and so forth – Valid, but you can't complain when people choose objectivity over your personal criterias.

Kimber isn't influenced by this forum, he has opinions that massively contradict opinions you'd see on here, such as his rating of Barrington over Headley.
 

ankitj

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
So this is going to be a thing?

He faced AT English attacks with Willis and peak Botham, also Willis and Snow, an AT pace attack in Australia of Lillee, Thompson and Walker, and the Pakistani trio.
When it comes to Gavaskar you don't even consider presence of multiple great West Indian pacers as sufficient challenge. You go down to performances by venues. But when it comes to Richards, Willis and Botham is ATG pace attack. smh. Why don't you just admit the obvious that Richards never faced the examination by pace of the kind that likes of Gavaskar and Border did?
 

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