The "What If " Game

[Richard]

Hmmm, the ones where you just cut off the first few, and the last couple, of Tests from someone's career are a bit of a furphy, IMO. Chances are that those games at the start were required to gauge the difference between FC and Test level, while the last few games may be the ones that convince you (or the selectors) that you can no longer cut it at that level.

Exactly. So those games don't really tell a hell of a lot about the greater part of a player's career. Which is exactly the point I always make when I say "don't just look at the overall career average".

 

[Burgey]

What if there'd been no rebel tours in the 80s? Would the 85 and 89 Ashes results have changed?

 

[Richard]

Along, possibly, with quite a few other Australian results of the time...

It's funny, you know - everyone always talks about Lillee, Marsh and Chappell retiring in the same Test... but what's easily overlooked is that this was only the start, not the entirity, of the cause of the problems. Soon after this, Hughes, Yallop, Wessels, Hogg and Alderman were all gone. Only one returned (and it's no coincidence that on his return he made the single biggest contribution to the series that turned the corner).

Along with the Packer Schism, Rebel tours really were a genuine scourge of cricket at that time. Substantially ruined what might have been a truly rich time.

Indeed, it'd be more accurate to say that had Apartheid never been conceived things would've been better still, as not only no Rebel tours, but no South Africa being kicked-out ITFP.

 

[bagapath]

Had Imran and Sir Beefy called it quits after playing 51 test matches may be botham would be hailed as the greatest all rounder of the era instead of fighting for that spot with (and losing it to) imran.

Botham 51 76 3 2833 208 38.80 11 10 231 8/34 23.01 19 4
Imran 51 77 12 2023 123 31.12 2 7 232 8/58 22.91 16 4

good thread aussie tragic. didnt realize you were back until recently. oz-fan is doing a good job of completing what we started last year with the "playing selector" thread.

 

[wpdavid]

What if there'd been no rebel tours in the 80s? Would the 85 and 89 Ashes results have changed?

The 1989 result certainly wouldn't have been altered - the rebel tour was announced during the test when Aus went 3-0 up with two to play, IIRC.

Maybe 1982/3 would have been a more interesting contest. Admittedly Gooch hadn't done a thing against Aus at that stage, but he had to be an improvement at the top of the order. And Emburey was probably missed, although it pains me to admit it.

1985, as Richard said, may well have gone the other way had Alderman been available.

 

[Poker Boy]

Gooch was poor against the Aussies apart from their crap attack in 1985 and his two series as captain so although he would probably have been better than one of Cook, tavare or Fowler not enough to make a difference. And again although Emburey would have been better than Marks, Hemmings or Miller (and what cretin picks THREE off spinners for a tour of Australia anyway?) again I don't think he would have changed the result. Now if Kepler Wessels had stayed in SA and Australia had to make do with the crap Wood/Dyson partnership....

 

[wpdavid]

Gooch was poor against the Aussies apart from their crap attack in 1985 and his two series as captain so although he would probably have been better than one of Cook, tavare or Fowler not enough to make a difference. And again although Emburey would have been better than Marks, Hemmings or Miller (and what cretin picks THREE off spinners for a tour of Australia anyway?) again I don't think he would have changed the result. Now if Kepler Wessels had stayed in SA and Australia had to make do with the crap Wood/Dyson partnership....

Wouldn't disagree with any of that. I'm trying to think who else was unavailable for the 1982/3 tour. Willey, of course, who would have added a bit of resolve to the middle order, but I don't think he'd have changed the results either. Most of the bowlers who went to SA were well past their best by then. Boycott must have been about 43. Mind you, Boycs thought he should have been brought back in 1985


EDIT
I think the answer to your question about picking the three offies was Peter May.

 

[Poker Boy]

If it wasn't for the fact Yorkshire sacked him I think Geoff would have thought he should have played in '89, '93, '97... Actually I should have said "cretins" because I knew about May (the worst chairman of selectors we've ever had IMO although there are a few candidates for that honour) but in those days they had more than just the chairman and hte captain picking the team so there must have been some others involved in that....

 

[aussie tragic]

What if the following Australian players, who are at the age where they should have been well established test cricketers by now, were born in England where they've all done well in county cricket:

1. Chris Rogers (29)
2. Phil Jacques (28, 2 tests)
3. Brad Hodge (32, 5 tests)
4. Martin Love (33, 5 tests)
5. Stuart Law (38, 1 test)
6. David Hussey (29)
7. Brad Haddin (29)
8. Ian Harvey (35)
9. Brad Hogg (36, 4 tests)
10. Ashley Noffke (30)
11. Nathan Bracken (29, 5 tests)

12. Michael Di Venuto (33)

EDIT: Forgot about Brad Hogg and with his competitor being Giles, he should have been a shoe in...

 

[honestbharani]

What if the following Australian players, who are at the age where they should have been well established test cricketers by now, were born in England where they've all done well in county cricket:

1. Chris Rogers (29)
2. Phil Jacques (28, 2 tests)
3. Brad Hodge (32, 5 tests)
4. Martin Love (33, 5 tests)
5. Stuart Law (38, 1 test)
6. David Hussey (29)
7. Brad Haddin (29)
8. Shane Lee (33)
9. Ian Harvey (35)
10. Ashley Noffke (30)
11. Nathan Bracken (29, 5 tests)

12. Michael Di Venuto (33)

England would still get whitewashed by Australia?

 

[wpdavid]

England would still get whitewashed by Australia?

We would if that attack was playing for us.

 

[aussie tragic]

We would if that attack was playing for us.

Well, you could have Hoggard, Bracken, Noffke, Flintoff & Panesar

 

[Richard]

Not sure about Noffke, TBH - better than Harmison and Mahmood, yes. Good enough to make any real difference, no.

Bracken, if he'd played for England before 2001, I'm convinced would have been a World-beater. In the days when a good swinging ball and a green pitch was the norm rather than the exception in this country, a consistent, rarely-injured bowler like him could not have been more of a diamond.

As it was, we had the oft-injured Fraser and Gough, the temperamental Caddick and Cork, and not much else between about 1982 and 2000.

 

[Richard]

Gooch was poor against the Aussies apart from their crap attack in 1985 and his two series as captain so although he would probably have been better than one of Cook, tavare or Fowler not enough to make a difference. And again although Emburey would have been better than Marks, Hemmings or Miller (and what cretin picks THREE off spinners for a tour of Australia anyway?) again I don't think he would have changed the result. Now if Kepler Wessels had stayed in SA and Australia had to make do with the crap Wood/Dyson partnership....

Personally I'd simply say what cretin picks three fingerspinners for England, full-stop. Even touring India or Sri Lanka you don't need that many. How poor old Victor Marks ever played a Test is beyond me.

 

[aussie tragic]

Not sure about Noffke, TBH - better than Harmison and Mahmood, yes. Good enough to make any real difference, no.

Well at least he could have filled the # 8 spot unlike Harmison, Anderson, Mahmood, Jones, Hoggard or Panesar