The value of ATG specialist bowlers vs bowling AR's/bowlers who can bat (picking the strongest all time XI)

[The Sean]

In short: AI can guide, but you must decide.

Have we just discovered the cricketing equivalent of "If the glove don't fit..."?

 

[smash84]

Not everyone Sir, just a small group of myopic persons who can't see the world outside of a limited perspective.

Subz is infuriating, but it just one player, and yes he goes after Kallis and Ambrose, but you take it to extremes that just borderline ignorant.

I would like you to watch Richie's team, specially where he repeatedly makes the disclaimer that it isn't the best team, but one that he would want to represent him.

There were his words, not mine.

Additionally yes, and for someone, who like myself watched and experienced cricket from that era, you're well aware of the media's and boards take towards their dominance. It wasn't a secret and not nearly well kept. The articles and and coverage were only thinly veiled in their racism, which was wild because we only first copied and then improved on what Lillee and Thompson was renowned for doing and was celebrated. One could even hear it in his commentary, especially when describing guys like Hadlee, where he would make statements like, "this is how it's supposed to be done. No bouncers or intimidation, just skill and....." I've posted such examples in the past. He equally excluded Murali, Knott and others from his short lists.

I've also posted vids showing the laws that were changed, the bouncer rule and min overs were only the tip of the iceberg. Banning instruments in England, curtailing the over seas players in county cricket, not allowing WI fans to sit together, yet still inviting us over because unfortunately for them, that's where the money was.

I'm not asking you, I've not only seen it, but spoken to multiple former test players who referenced same as well. But you can just be you and pretend that he could name 6 fast bowlers better than Marshall, 3 spinners better than Murali or that Marsh was better than Knott.

You allow yourself to get so damn worked up about one player that you lose any semblance of objectivity

I can literally have anyone put 6 fast bowlers ahead of Marshall and wouldn't have any problem with it. My whole argument is that the top 10 bowlers are close enough to each other that putting one ahead of the other doesn't really change much. You seem offended by Marshall not making the shortlist as if it's an unpardonable sin and makes someone racist. It is not, especially for someone who rates the top pacers as being quite interchangeable from each other.

 

[Coronis]

Ask AI why it values something and see if the explanation aligns with your cricketing philosophy.

This is basically kyear with everything, not just AI. And then its taken as gospel. If someone/something agrees with something its quoted ad nauseum as proof that he is right. If not, its biased or not correct or not relevant.

 

[kyear2]

This is basically kyear with everything, not just AI. And then its taken as gospel. If someone/something agrees with something its quoted ad nauseum as proof that he is right. If not, its biased or not correct or not relevant.

Hold on, who's taking anything as gospel.

It's an opinion, morning more, nothing less. One of many, and one that's actually quite well reasoned, and one might imagine untarnished by bias or personal animosity as is oft presented here. Because a lot of you no longer argue points, it's based on favorites and personalities.

So kindly refrain from speaking for me.

I asked a question, it answered, I posted. If you have a problem with it, don't read.

 

[smash84]

One of many, and one that's actually quite well reasoned, and one might imagine untarnished by bias or personal animosity as is oft presented here. Because a lot of you no longer argue points, it's based on favorites and personalities.

So kindly refrain from speaking for me.

I asked a question, it answered, I posted. If you have a problem with it, don't read.

Lol, the irony of this post

 

[kyear2]

Prompt: Can I take AI's opinion regarding the importance of different aspects of Cricket Seriously?




No, you should not take AI’s opinion seriously when it comes to the importance of different aspects of cricket—and here’s why:

Why You Should Be Cautious:

1. AI Doesn’t Think—It Synthesizes:

AI doesn’t have its own beliefs or experiences.

It reflects what has been written or emphasized in historical data, expert articles, and fan opinions.



2. Source Bias:

If most sources it’s trained on emphasize batting average over strike rate, or Test cricket over ODIs, the AI may echo those biases—even if modern thinking differs.



3. No Emotional or Cultural Context:

AI can’t grasp intangibles like clutch performances, fan impact, or cultural influence (e.g., the aura of a Kapil Dev or the pressure Sachin faced in the 1990s India).



4. Can Overvalue Measurable Stats:

AI might overrate aspects that are easily quantified (e.g., economy rate, average), and undervalue aspects that are situational or qualitative (e.g., leadership, intimidation, adaptability).





---

What You Can Use AI For:

To understand how different eras compare statistically.

To get objective summaries of players, formats, or roles.


---

What You Should Do:

Treat AI’s opinion as one input in your analysis—not the final word.

Challenge it by bringing your own cricketing logic, context, and counterpoints.

Ask AI why it values something and see if the explanation aligns with your cricketing philosophy.



---

In short: AI can guide, but you must decide.

Who ever suggested otherwise.

 

[kyear2]

Lol, the irony of this post

Just from your perspective.

Imagine this, you have a personal dislike for me, because I disagree on a player that you like.

Imagine how ****ing ridiculous that is.

 

[smash84]

Just from your perspective.

Imagine this, you have a personal dislike for me, because I disagree on a player that you like.

Imagine how ****ing ridiculous that is.

You of all should be the last person on this forum calling this ridiculous.

You, who threw a fit and called people racist that your favorite player was not included in their very well publicized AT XI.

Besides, my single biggest issue is that you refuse to indulge in good faith discussion and I am not the only one who accuses you of that. If multiple people are telling you the same thing, maybe its time to look into your collar.

 

[kyear2]

You of all should be the last person on this forum calling this ridiculous.

You, who threw a fit and called people racist that your favorite player was not included in their very well publicized AT XI.

Besides, my single biggest issue is that you refuse to indulge in good faith discussion and I am not the only one who accuses you of that. If multiple people are telling you the same thing, maybe its time to look into your collar.

Dude, I don't know it it was racist, but it was clearly biased. What I said was that there were lots of thinly veiled racist attacks on the bowlers, a 2 min Google search would clearly show you that, as been posted by multiple members over the years. You just chose to ignore or didn't care, either way, that's on you.

Benaud was openly, and unashamedly biased and critical against the WI pace attack, openly saying that they didn't play the game the right way. Which was hilariously hypocritical because he reveres Lillee for the exact same thing. I take back nothing I've said about him.

There was no fit, it was reasoned argument stating clearly the basis of my opinion.

You really need to look back at some of the newspaper articles from the early to mid '80's.

And no, tour argument with me, as you've clearly articulated is that you believe that I've engaged in a decade long crusade against your favorite player. You've said it enough times.

At first you intimated that it was either personal or political, now according to @Migara I'm bitter because they almost beat the WI.

Imran was one of the greatest bowlers ever, top 8, and the 2nd best all rounder ever. He was also a massive cheat, both with regards to the ball tampering that he not only engaged in, but gleefully passed down. And the unmatched institutionalized, biased home umpiring, that I'm told I should give him credit for trying to change, even though they benefitted from it for over a decade.

Both the former and latter can be true, but you prefer that I ignore the latter and just focus on the former. I rank him as a top 10 player, I think that fair.

I've been called all kinds of biased and ignorant for not selecting an attack of Imran and Hadlee and it's all because I hate Imran. Yet you don't even see the need for the whole bat deep thing and also agree that McGrath and Marshall are probably the ideal opening pair with the only difference is that I prefer Wasim, a Pakistani as well btw, and you prefer Imran.

That jackass short pitched says it's not an option to even choose McGrath and one would have to be biased or whatever word he chose, to do so. Yet McGrath is close to doubling Imran on votes. It's not just me, I'm just more vocal.

I don't hate Imran, I don't go out of my way to downgrade Imran, as Subz has openly said it's his goal for anyone who is a competitor of his. What does annoy me, is the way everyone wants to believe that his home record was clean and the attempt to create false equivalencies by implying that everyone was doing it to that extent.

No, I don't argue in bad faith, you don't like the arguments.

So you the go out of your way to just be you.

And the multiple people, they have the same issues, but I've discussed that before.

 

[Coronis]

Who ever suggested otherwise.

You. You literally tried to use AI as evidence that your opinion is correct.

 

[kyear2]

You. You literally tried to use AI as evidence that your opinion is correct.

I also said not everyone is going to agree with everything there.

It's something that I found interesting that was well reasoned.

No different from referencing an article or interview.

 

[subshakerz]

Dude, I don't know it it was racist, but it was clearly biased.

Kinda reminds me when I called you biased and you insinuated I called you a racist.

I don't go out of my way to downgrade Imran, as Subz has openly said it's his goal for anyone who is a competitor of his.

Don't lie. I never said that. And this forum rates Imran even higher than I do btw.

 

[subshakerz]

I also said not everyone is going to agree with everything there.

It's something that I found interesting that was well reasoned.

No different from referencing an article or interview.

Don't bring in AI. I can change the prompt and get any answer I like on these questions. It's no authority.

 

[subshakerz]

At first you intimated that it was either personal or political, now according to @Migara I'm bitter because they almost beat the WI.

Honestly that views kinda explains why you are so irrational towards Imran better than anything I can think of.

 

[kyear2]

Kinda reminds me when I called you biased and you insinuated I called you a racist.


Don't lie. I never said that. And this forum rates Imran even higher than I do btw.

You said I'm biased against asian cricketers.

You literally said it was your duty to down grade Ambrose.

You also said Kallis was over rated and it was your duty to point it out.

 

[kyear2]

Don't bring in AI. I can change the prompt and get any answer I like on these questions. It's no authority.

Never said it's an authority, and I can show the question asked, because I was genuinely curious.

Everyone one here has become so incredibly siloed. Everyone's arguments are now based on players they like or posters they don't. I legitimately enjoyed the conversation with cipher, because even though he had his built in perception, it wasn't nasty.

The reasoning and logic is sound, the only reason there's an uproar is because many disagreed with it.

It's not even an outrageous take, and there's nothing there than can be pointed at and said that it doesn't make sense.

At first I thought that possibly a lot of views here we're based on regional influences, but that may have cut it when we were growing up because we basically only saw what was in country, but now everyone gets to watch everything. It's just stubborn biases.

 

[subshakerz]

Never said it's an authority, and I can show the question asked, because I was genuinely curious.

Everyone one here has become so incredibly siloed. Everyone's arguments are now based on players they like or posters they don't. I legitimately enjoyed the conversation with cipher, because even though he had his built in perception, it wasn't nasty.

The reasoning and logic is sound, the only reason there's an uproar is because many disagreed with it.

It's not even an outrageous take, and there's nothing there than can be pointed at and said that it doesn't make sense.

At first I thought that possibly a lot of views here we're based on regional influences, but that may have cut it when we were growing up because we basically only saw what was in country, but now everyone gets to watch everything. It's just stubborn biases.

You are obviously bringing AI in to sway opinion but you admit it's not an authority. Don't bring it.

You said I'm biased against asian cricketers.

You literally said it was your duty to down grade Ambrose.

You also said Kallis was over rated and it was your duty to point it out.

Yes, I said you are biased (something you accused most of this board of, being tribal) and you think that means racist.

Whatever my comments are on Ambrose and Kallis, I never said it's my duty to upgrade Imran. You lied, please apologize.

 

[kyear2]

Honestly that views kinda explains why you are so irrational towards Imran better than anything I can think of.

I don't even fully recall that series, though I think it was possible I was there for that game, at least one game.

Subz, Ponting and McGrath destroyed us, Punter is one of my favorite players. McGrath I think is the 2nd best bowler of all time.

There was one player I recall that I absolutely couldn't stand, and that was Andre Nel, especially that thing he did with the stumps and Lara was his bunny for a little while.
I loved to watch Donald bowl, and watch Robin Smith and to a lesser extent Lamb bat. There was something about Robin.

It's not irrational, it's irrational to you because you admire him. I used to as well, he was in my AT team, couldn't understand why he never got the attention that Sobers and Bradman got. I had always heard about the umpiring growing up, but it was always more associated with Javed, and of course the tampering, but it was more hushed. But as I read more, and got eventually asked some questions, it became more apparent why he wants rated as highly as his numbers would suggest.

It does genuinely bother me, as I'm sure it bothers you when I say this, that everyone just sweeps it under the rug. There was a reason why despite the numbers during his peak he was never seen in the same league as Marshall, Lillee nor Hadlee, and Hadlee was somewhat rated behind the other two as well.
But through all of that, he was capable of magic, and truly was a great bowler, but he had more issues and restrictions than the others.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't even fully recall that series, though I think it was possible I was there for that game, at least one game.

Subz, Ponting and McGrath destroyed us, Punter is one of my favorite players. McGrath I think is the 2nd best bowler of all time.

There was one player I recall that I absolutely couldn't stand, and that was Andre Nel, especially that thing he did with the stumps and Lara was his bunny for a little while.
I loved to watch Donald bowl, and watch Robin Smith and to a lesser extent Lamb bat. There was something about Robin.

It's not irrational, it's irrational to you because you admire him. I used to as well, he was in my AT team, couldn't understand why he never got the attention that Sobers and Bradman got. I had always heard about the umpiring growing up, but it was always more associated with Javed, and of course the tampering, but it was more hushed. But as I read more, and got eventually asked some questions, it became more apparent why he wants rated as highly as his numbers would suggest.

It does genuinely bother me, as I'm sure it bothers you when I say this, that everyone just sweeps it under the rug. There was a reason why despite the numbers during his peak he was never seen in the same league as Marshall, Lillee nor Hadlee, and Hadlee was somewhat rated behind the other two as well.
But through all of that, he was capable of magic, and truly was a great bowler, but he had more issues and restrictions than the others.

Look I think it was Coronis who mentioned first you may have a defensiveness bias towards WI cricketers. I didn't think much of it, but honestly it would explain why you react the way you do towards anyone pointing out a weakness of Marshall and Ambrose and Viv and Lara. And why Imran who did best against WI has to be downgraded a bit.

As for Imran, Kimber who you respect so much clearly has him in the ATG XI and treats him as a given. Other experts don't. But he clearly has a high enough rep that he can fit there without anyone raising a fuss, except you.

You have him in your third ATG XI despite claiming you see him as a top ten cricketer. The only way I can explain that is bias. There is literally no other explanation.

 

[kyear2]

You are obviously bringing AI in to sway opinion but you admit it's not an authority. Don't bring it.


Yes, I said you are biased (something you accused most of this board of, being tribal) and you think that means racist.

Whatever my comments are on Ambrose and Kallis, I never said it's my duty to upgrade Imran. You lied, please apologize.

No, because it's as valid as anything anyone here has to say and I found it to be a reasoned argument.

If I'm biased against people of a certain region, yes that's racist.

Imran was what he was, I don't see the need to bow at the temple of.

I rate Barry higher than Sunny, so did everyone from the 70's. This isn't just me. ORS has told stories about how Sunny was a fair weather batsman and that Barry was better. You hear that from the bowlers as well.

Who else is there? I don't care where anyone is from, the batsman I reference most often is a white South African from the apartheid era.

But that's how things are here, you aren't allowed to go against conventional anything.

When I say Bradman wasn't twice the batsman that guys like Sachin, Hobbs or Richards are it's based partially on logic and the fact that the gray man encountered the perfect storm and took full advantage. But also because the people who actually saw him and Hobbs bat, rated them as equals. And as Peterhrt has repeatedly said, that was the accepted perception of the day up until the the 60's. But we automatically assume we know better be cause we can read a spreadsheet.