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The value of a specialist keeper vs a wicketkeeper batsman

TheJediBrah

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Disrespectfully you don’t either. You haven’t backed anything up you’ve said with any kind of data to prove why a specialist keeper who can’t bat is more useful than a competent wicketkeeper who can bat. Outside of talking about Bairstows poor form with bat & gloves which I agreed meant he should have been dropped.

If I did a poll between Pant & Foakes. Pant would win despite Foakes being a much better glove man. I showed you how better keepers didn’t out perform average keepers by significant margins with their dismissal rate or missed chance rates & that only recently keepers take on average ~2 dismissals an innings.
When I said you don't have any idea what you're talking about, it wasn't to do with any of this

Bit you're still wrong
How can you legislate for that though?
You can't with any accuracy. Butterfly effect. Dropping a catch could end up actually helping you in a roundabout way but you could never know.
 

sayon basak

Cricketer Of The Year
But what if the batting is ****?? Pant is arguably our 2nd best batsman right now. He will play. But will you pick Saha (30 avg bat, Great keeper) in the team? India aren't picking Jurel (40 avg bat, Good keeper) when Pant plays...... And he most likely will play in England as just a batsman.
Saha is a better batsman than half of your top order. So, why not? Keep Pant as a batter alone and take Saha as the keeper.
 

TheJediBrah

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Yeah look, if you disagree with the post that's fine, but there was no reason for the immediate and unnecessary ad hominem. You're better than that. Don't be a ****.
You're being a bit precious. Making an (accurate) observation that you haven't played a lot of cricket at a decent level isn't some wild attack.

If he had have said "you're post is dumb because you are poor and have fetal alcohol syndrome", then fair enough, that's being a ****
 

Cipher

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
You're being a bit precious. Making an (accurate) observation that you haven't played a lot of cricket at a decent level isn't some wild attack.

If he had have said "you're post is dumb because you are poor and have fetal alcohol syndrome", then fair enough, that's being a ****
He’s not being precious at all he should be calling it out for what it is. Old mate pro just says he’s wrong because “I’m better at cricket than you.” It’s not an argument based on anything, there’s no FACTS, it’s thick headed elitist gatekeeping.
 

JBMAC

State Captain
He’s not being precious at all he should be calling it out for what it is. Old mate pro just says he’s wrong because “I’m better at cricket than you.” It’s not an argument based on anything, there’s no FACTS, it’s thick headed elitist gatekeeping.
Dream on Sunshine
 

Adders

International Coach
Well we may as well just shut CW down right now if the criteria for being allowed to voice an opinion on the game is restricted to those old enough to have watched the Don play and having played cricket at a professional level.
 

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
Well we may as well just shut CW down right now if the criteria for being allowed to voice an opinion on the game is restricted to those old enough to have watched the Don play and having played cricket at a professional level.
tbf I wouldn’t mind reading only JBMAC posting in CC
 

TheJediBrah

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Well we may as well just shut CW down right now if the criteria for being allowed to voice an opinion on the game is restricted to those old enough to have watched the Don play and having played cricket at a professional level.
Anyone is free to have an opinion, but likewise anyone is free to deride it if it's bad and uninformed

Freedom of speech =/= freedom from consequences
 

Adders

International Coach
Anyone is free to have an opinion, but likewise anyone is free to deride it if it's bad and uninformed

Freedom of speech =/= freedom from consequences
Sledgers opinion was neither bad nor uninformed though......it just differed to JB's (as you've alluded to) if ever there was a discussion on cricket where there is no right or wrong but a whole heap of grey this is definately one of them.

So yes, JB's response was absolutely condescending as is calling grown men "Sunshine" he totally should be called out on it.
 

TheJediBrah

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Sledgers opinion was neither bad nor uninformed though......it just differed to JB's (as you've alluded to) if ever there was a discussion on cricket where there is no right or wrong but a whole heap of grey this is definately one of them.

So yes, JB's response was absolutely condescending as is calling grown men "Sunshine" he totally should be called out on it.
When you're righteous, condescending = alpha
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
The starting point for me is that whoever is picked as the keeper (whether they are nominally a specialist or otherwise) needs to average at least 35 odd. If they can't manage that they just aren't worth the candle for me personally, whatever other benefits they provide. There is some nuance to this (I mean obviously you can't pick someone who is objectively shithouse at keeping), but I'd have a fairly decent bat who is a somewhat mediocre/questionable keeper (e.g., Bairstow) over a specialist keeper who can't bat to save their life (e.g., Chris Read) any day.
How many legitimately great wicket-keepers have ever averaged over 35?

There's literally only one keeper bat I would choose over Knott and that's Gilchrist.

I'm also taking Healy everyday if the week ahead of Pant.

It's byes, dropped chances, the ability to apply pressure by standing up to the stumps, covering for a weaker 1st slip.

It's can't be simply looked at in terms of batting average.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
The thing is though, keepers were on average taking no more than 2 dismissals an innings in the 20th century.
Even for all the plaudits for guys like Knott & Healy how often & how much is the their keeping skill actually impacting a game compared to a standard keeper? Considering that Andy Flower had a higher D/I rate (1.572) than Alan Knott or that Jack Russell only had a higher D/I rate of 0.009 over Alec Stewart are these unaccounted qualities even that important?
I would be interested to hear what qualities an outstanding keeper brings that occurs at the same consistency/impact that a WK Batsman's runs would bring. Certainly you don't want a mug behind the stumps but is a big sacrifice in batting ability worth the trade off in elite keeping skill?

Of course, both great cricketers in their own right. I suspect you would pick Flower if your team's batting was weak or your bowlers were not reliant on wicketkeeper assisted dismissals. Vice-versa for Healy. For ATG sides I think you would rather have Knott over Pant as an example.
As I've stated above, it's drops, taking half chances, creating chances, standing up to the stumps to the medium pacers, byes, covering 1st slip.

Watch Knott standing up to Deadly and tell me 8 extra runs an innings is worth that? Not a chance.

Even watch someone like Boucher try to keep to Murali, it was a **** show.

If you're dropping chances, you're losing matches, it's that simple. We've had our fair share, Courtney Brown and Junior Murray sunk our chances on multiple occasions.

There's a certain poster who speaks to Pant's ability to make up for missed chances with the bat. What happens when he doesn't? Didn't...

No one, given half a choice is keeping Flower as their primary keeper. It was borne out of necessity. Even the English experiment with Stewart and Russell was a disaster.
When Alec took the gloves, England was worse in front of and behind the stumps. He was the worse keeper and his batting dropped off. Where was the benefit?
 

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