The Great West Indian Team (1976-1995) vs Current Great Australian Side (1995 to Now)

[Swervy]

balances out really...
people harp that at altitude there is less air therefore ball travels faster..... but that is negated by the fact that there is also LESS OXYGEN at altitude so you are getting less energy for your efforts.....
If it didnt balance out, you'd see all sorts of olympic records being broken at high altitude venues.... and if air resistance was the only thing, people would've been throwing stuff a whole yard further on the peak of mt. everest....whereinfact the other factors so severely outbalance the 'density of air' factor that people arnt half as efficient on mt. everest as they aer on sea-level.

well it doesnt take that long for the body to adjust to altitude..so after a period of adapting to the conditions, there shouldnt be any real effect on the body performing at higher altitudes (most sport isnt played on top of Mt Everest..so lets ignore extreme altitude)....

However so many record performances have occured at altitude, you cannot ignore the effect of the lessening of friction due to less density...one example is Bob Beamon in the long jump in Mexico City...another that springs to mind is in American Football,where the Denver Broncos play (ie high in the Rockies),a players ability to kick a ball is increased by probably around 10%,all down to the rarified atmosphere....of course over a long period the effect is noticable...middle and long distance runners will struggle at high altitude..but in events involving short, violent spurts of energy (100m sprint, bowling a cricket ball,long jump, kicking a football), the effect of the less oxygen would be minimal

 

[C_C]

(most sport isnt played on top of Mt Everest..so lets ignore extreme altitude)....

actually forget extreme case examples, it is valid even on moderately high altitudes....

However so many record performances have occured at altitude, you cannot ignore the effect of the lessening of friction due to less density...one example is Bob Beamon in the long jump in Mexico City...another that springs to mind is in American Football,where the Denver Broncos play (ie high in the Rockies),a players ability to kick a ball is increased by probably around 10%,all down to the rarified atmosphere....of course over a long period the effect is noticable...middle and long distance runners will struggle at high altitude..but in events involving short, violent spurts of energy (100m sprint, bowling a cricket ball,long jump, kicking a football), the effect of the less oxygen would be minimal

Well records are broken at every olympic games...what i mean is that high altitudes dont have a heavy number of disproportionate records falling.....that bob beamon jump was a freak of nature.... coz mexico city had international athletic meets since then involving the best of the best and no one even came close to that jump for a long time....

And no, i dont think a player kicks 10% further in rarified atmosphere than at sea-level....because while there is less friction to aid him, he is getting less oxygen and therefore producing less force...ie, yes the ball is travelling slightly faster but he is kicking slightly slower....
Playing for a long time on high atmosphere...what it does though is it eventually makes you adapt to the rarified air, so when you play at sea level, its like a bonus weightless bottle of oxygen for you.... like practicing grade 10 geometry and then taking the grade 9 geometry finals......
However, its not like Akhtar is used to play in the high altitudes....
As per short violent spurts of energy at high altitudes.... i dont think it matters really..because of the counterbalance factor with less energy produced by your muscles...
but if you want, i can test out that theory on monday...
I live in Vancouver...which is at sea level...and i am gonna go mountain-biking on Grouss mountain on monday...which is at around 4000 feet high.

 

[Swervy]

actually forget extreme case examples, it is valid even on moderately high altitudes....



Well records are broken at every olympic games...what i mean is that high altitudes dont have a heavy number of disproportionate records falling.....that bob beamon jump was a freak of nature.... coz mexico city had international athletic meets since then involving the best of the best and no one even came close to that jump for a long time....

And no, i dont think a player kicks 10% further in rarified atmosphere than at sea-level....because while there is less friction to aid him, he is getting less oxygen and therefore producing less force...ie, yes the ball is travelling slightly faster but he is kicking slightly slower....
Playing for a long time on high atmosphere...what it does though is it eventually makes you adapt to the rarified air, so when you play at sea level, its like a bonus weightless bottle of oxygen for you.... like practicing grade 10 geometry and then taking the grade 9 geometry finals......
However, its not like Akhtar is used to play in the high altitudes....
As per short violent spurts of energy at high altitudes.... i dont think it matters really..because of the counterbalance factor with less energy produced by your muscles...
but if you want, i can test out that theory on monday...
I live in Vancouver...which is at sea level...and i am gonna go mountain-biking on Grouss mountain on monday...which is at around 4000 feet high.

well it wasnt only Bob Beamons record that fell you know...several athletics records were not only broken , but actually smashed in the rarefied atmosphre of Mexico City..triple jump actually had the previous world record broken 5 times in that one competition...here you go..straight from an OFFICIAL OLYMPIC SITE:

The choice of Mexico City to host the 1968 Olympics was a controversial one because of the city's high altitude, 2,300m, which meant that the air contained 30% less oxygen than at sea level. Sure enough, the rarefied air proved disastrous to many athletes competing in endurance events. On the other hand, the high altitude led to world records in all of the men’s races that were 400m or shorter, including both relays, and in the 400m hurdles, in the long jump and triple jump as well. Bob Beamon’s spectacular long jump of 8.90m would last as a world record for 22 years.

Re:Kicking the ball in Denver...well you are flying in the face of Fact my friend(!!!)...punters for the Broncos are consistantly kicking the ball 5 yards further (with a higher hang time ie ball in the air longer) than punters who play near sea level..and have done for 40 odd years..its an effect so pronounced that it affect a teams gameplan when playing in Denver

Re: your attempted de-bunking of the idea that altitude doesnt really affect explosive actions in sport....well considering in a 100m sprint, many athletes actually dont breath during the race,because the act of breathing can be seen as a waste of energy for those 10 seconds...I really dont know how lack of oxygen would come into play.

You can try and prove all you like on your mountain bike..the fact is that that activity is not a short violent action in the same way bowling a cricket ball is...it will prove nothing

 

[C_C]

Re: your attempted de-bunking of the idea that altitude doesnt really affect explosive actions in sport....well considering in a 100m sprint, many athletes actually dont breath during the race,because the act of breathing can be seen as a waste of energy for those 10 seconds...I really dont know how lack of oxygen would come into play.

That is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard... ever SEEN a 100 metre dash ? players are breathing in and out throughout the dash... infact they tell you first thing in sprinting that breathing rythmically is essential to doing well.

Re:Kicking the ball in Denver...well you are flying in the face of Fact my friend(!!!)...punters for the Broncos are consistantly kicking the ball 5 yards further (with a higher hang time ie ball in the air longer) than punters who play near sea level..and have done for 40 odd years..its an effect so pronounced that it affect a teams gameplan when playing in Denver

yes but thats different than you or me going to a high atmospheric level and doing exceedingly well. It is because the Broncos are accustomed to those rarified airs and therefore have their bodies adjusted...so when they play at sea level, its like they get an extra weightless bottle of oxygen... like i said before.

The choice of Mexico City to host the 1968 Olympics was a controversial one because of the city's high altitude, 2,300m, which meant that the air contained 30% less oxygen than at sea level. Sure enough, the rarefied air proved disastrous to many athletes competing in endurance events. On the other hand, the high altitude led to world records in all of the men’s races that were 400m or shorter, including both relays, and in the 400m hurdles, in the long jump and triple jump as well. Bob Beamon’s spectacular long jump of 8.90m would last as a world record for 22 years.

Perhaps maybe true for Mexico city then...but unless it is an occurance at ALL high-altitude venues, i wouldnt consider it a fact.

You can try and prove all you like on your mountain bike..the fact is that that activity is not a short violent action in the same way bowling a cricket ball is...it will prove nothing

who said i am gonna prove it ON a mountain-bike ?
C'mon mate- i know that mountain biking is different than hurling a cricket ball....
I said i would be going up to 4K feet on monday and i can do similar experiment to validate/invalidate your theory.
I havnt decieded yet.... prolly chuck a piece of brick and measure the distance or do a short sprint over 50 m or so to deciede......and you got my word that i am gonna post my honest results.

PS: Even if you come out right on the top speed theory, i would like to point out that i take into account the average speed as well.... and till 2003 or so, Akhtar's ave. speed was a bit higher than Lee's ave. speed, even ifyou consider his pre-back injury days.

 

[Swervy]

That is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard... ever SEEN a 100 metre dash ? players are breathing in and out throughout the dash... infact they tell you first thing in sprinting that breathing rythmically is essential to doing well..

many do breathe during a 100 m dash...many dont..because there is infact no real need to take on board oxygen during that 10 seconds

yes but thats different than you or me going to a high atmospheric level and doing exceedingly well. It is because the Broncos are accustomed to those rarified airs and therefore have their bodies adjusted...so when they play at sea level, its like they get an extra weightless bottle of oxygen... like i said before...

Kickers from sea level teams also preform about 10% better in Denver as well

Perhaps maybe true for Mexico city then...but unless it is an occurance at ALL high-altitude venues, i wouldnt consider it a fact.

there hasnt been a high altitude Olympics since..and neither has there been a Athletics World Championships at high altitude.

Fact remains that the Mexico Olympics was the only Olympics up to that point (and I beleive since) where so may records were broken in events lasting less than 150 seconds with NO records broken in events over that....yes,rarefied atmosphres effect endurance events,but the overriding effect in short events is the lower air density

who said i am gonna prove it ON a mountain-bike ?
C'mon mate- i know that mountain biking is different than hurling a cricket ball....
I said i would be going up to 4K feet on monday and i can do similar experiment to validate/invalidate your theory.
I havnt decieded yet.... prolly chuck a piece of brick and measure the distance or do a short sprint over 50 m or so to deciede......and you got my word that i am gonna post my honest results.

you can try all the experiements you want..it wont be valid what ever you do, for so many reasons.

Dont ruin your bike ride.

 

[C_C]

It would be valid if i observed the proper procedural methods and consistency.... but even if i convince my buddies to take part, it would be a rather short sample space...but if there is a discernable anomaly, we will most likely observe it.

 

[Swervy]

It would be valid if i observed the proper procedural methods and consistency.... but even if i convince my buddies to take part, it would be a rather short sample space...but if there is a discernable anomaly, we will most likely observe it.

Ok you try it..but I will rather go with almost half a centurys worth of sporting results than a bunch of lads chucking bricks in the air.

Of course you will be taking into account humidity, the amount of energy you have used up before 'throwing' at altitude,wind speed, your sub-conscious wanting to dispell the idea that lower air density equals projectile moving faster,angle of release etc....of course you will

 

[social]

A load of codswallop.

To say his balls were that much quicker than anything else ever bowled when you add in those criteria is mad.

The equipment to even time the bowling to that degree of accuracy didn't exist for one thing.

OK Marc, let me put it this way.

When the timing was taken, most agreed that Thommo was not at his best.

Ian and Greg Chappell confirmed it.

Thommo himself confirmed that the fastest he ever bowled was when he played for Middlesex and hit the base of the fence in front of the Member's Stand with a bouncer.

I played on a ground where one of Thommo's bouncers ended up in the local school yard.

Thomson was quick - ********** quick

 

[Swervy]

OK Marc, let me put it this way.

When the timing was taken, most agreed that Thommo was not at his best.

Ian and Greg Chappell confirmed it.

Thommo himself confirmed that the fastest he ever bowled was when he played for Middlesex and hit the base of the fence in front of the Member's Stand with a bouncer.

I played on a ground where one of Thommo's bouncers ended up in the local school yard.

Thomson was quick - ********** quick

that he was...and I would agree that he was faster than both Shoaib and Lee...whatever the speedos say

 

[C_C]

I think there is no evidence to categorically prove that Thommo was faster than Shoaib/Lee/Holding/Gillchrist/Patterson etc.
Simply because we dont know what the consistent and career-peak speed of many of em were....
As per thommo hitting the fence...a dude called Cortwright(sp?) did it.......
Besides, his record is in a speed compition....where you dont give a toss where you pitch it, where it goes, etc etc...just let it rip...different from match-condition bowling, especially ODIs, where every delivery counts.


PS: Swervy: Dude...Grouss mt. is about 30 min drive from downtown vancouver and 20 min drive from my home...it is one of the mountains surrounding the north shore region of vancouver...pretty sure humidity would be same....
But like i said... for it to have any noticable difference, most criterias you mentioned are negligible.... we are pretty fit people...not a buncha fat slobs... i am pretty sure me and my mates can hurl a brick consistently for 20-30 times(with breaks ofcourse)....or run 2 sprints of 50m without much energy issues in a span of 3-4 hours.....
and my subconcious might affect ME...not my mates. not unless they are telepathic and sympathetic(which they are not-most definately not the last one )

If it is a noticable difference..it should show.

 

[Swervy]

I think there is no evidence to categorically prove that Thommo was faster than Shoaib/Lee/Holding/Gillchrist/Patterson etc.
Simply because we dont know what the consistent and career-peak speed of many of em were....
As per thommo hitting the fence...a dude called Cortwright(sp?) did it.......
Besides, his record is in a speed compition....where you dont give a toss where you pitch it, where it goes, etc etc...just let it rip...different from match-condition bowling, especially ODIs, where every delivery counts.


PS: Swervy: Dude...Grouss mt. is about 30 min drive from downtown vancouver and 20 min drive from my home...it is one of the mountains surrounding the north shore region of vancouver...pretty sure humidity would be same....
But like i said... for it to have any noticable difference, most criterias you mentioned are negligible.... we are pretty fit people...not a buncha fat slobs... i am pretty sure me and my mates can hurl a brick consistently for 20-30 times(with breaks ofcourse)....or run 2 sprints of 50m without much energy issues in a span of 3-4 hours.....
and my subconcious might affect ME...not my mates. not unless they are telepathic and sympathetic(which they are not-most definately not the last one )

If it is a noticable difference..it should show.

I would say the humidity in Vacouver would be much higher than up in the mountains...it will no doubt be colder up there..colder air carries less moisture than warmer air etc etc...

 

[marc71178]

OK Marc, let me put it this way.

When the timing was taken, most agreed that Thommo was not at his best.

Yes, and that means he was clocked at 170?

Pull the other one.

 

[marc71178]

balances out really...
people harp that at altitude there is less air therefore ball travels faster..... but that is negated by the fact that there is also LESS OXYGEN at altitude so you are getting less energy for your efforts.....

So it was just coincidence that so many bowlers bowled 5+ mph quicker than they'd ever done just in that one competition and then lost the extra pace after it?

 

[social]

Yes, and that means he was clocked at 170?

Pull the other one.

Dont shoot the messenger - its been scientifically proven.

 

[marc71178]

Erm, no it has not.

 

[social]

Erm, no it has not.

Ok fine.

Im lying as was the uni prof who presented the report on national media.

****head

 

[marc71178]

If it isn't rubbish you'd show us this so called proof...

 

[Slifer]

Though i am new to this message board i think i can offer a well balanced argument.

AUS [/U]W.I.
Hayden Greenidge
Langer Haynes
Ponting Richards
M. Waugh Richardson
S Waugh Kalli
D Martyn Lloyd
G Gilchrist Dujon
Warne Marshall
Gillespie Holding
Kaspa Ambrose/Croft/Roberts/Bishop
Mcgrath Garner

If these two teams were to play 10 tests home and away with the Aussies playing in the West Indies' era and the West Indies playing in the Aussie era. I would say that Australia would probably win 3-2 at home(Sydney win, Perth lose, Adelaide lose, Melbourne win, Brisbane win).
away to the West Indies WI would win 3-1(Tri win, B'dos win, Jam win, Guyana lose, Antigua draw)

Overall 5-4 to West Indies.

What Ive noticed in most of these arguments is that most persons neglect the effect of home advantage. West Indies for all their ineptitude against spin would never prepare a spinner friendly pitch for the likes of Warne (by the way warne averages 39 away to an ordinary West Indies team and 28 in Australia). in the same vein Aust. would hesistate to prepare flyers for the West Indians but they would not make them spinner friendly either otherwise they would negate the effectiveness of their own attack. Overall i do however consider this Australian team to be the best/awesome team ever!!! Put them up against the WI of '76-88 or '76-'95 see above