The great 1980s all rounders

[h_hurricane]

If we just look at their 1970s record, it is Botham followed by a million daylights then Kapil clear daylight and then Imran and Hadlee.

Botham Batting 36.82 Bowling 19.27
Kapil Batting 31.89 Bowling 27.73
Imran Batting 22.48 Bowling 31.88
Hadlee Batting 20.09 Bowling 30.14

I don't think any one in their fair mind would have called Imran and Hadlee allrounders till the beginning of 1980s. It is incredible how they turned around that kind of a poor start.

Kapil's record barely changed in 1980s. A consistent ATG if ever there was one without much crest and trough.

Botham's decline in his second half is well documented and discussed and truly messed his overall stats.

 

[Burgey]

I wouldn’t dare for one second to ever claim to know what goes on in Burgey’s head. But my guess here would be that the title of the thread isn’t supposed to be taken quite so literally as to start the comparison from the 1st January 1980.

I’m glad you’re across your limitations here.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I’m glad you’re across your limitations here.

It's definitely a murky pool across which one trespasses at their peril.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Ok if you want to split up peoples careers...

Imran’s first 60 tests:
2255 runs @ 30.06 with 2 centuries, 282 wickets @ 21.74 with 19 5’fers.
Last 28 tests:
1552 runs @ 59.69 with 4 centuries, 80 wickets @ 27.52 with 4 5’fers.

Two clearly distinct phases of his career, and though you wouldn’t get both at the same time, any side in the world ever would kill for either of these players. Either of these periods in isolation would still have him considered as an ATG.

So , Statistically

Shaun Pollock / Hadlee for 60 tests + Chris Cairns in last 28 tests.

Cairns 53 runs and 3.5 wkts per test
Imran 55 runs and 2.8 wkts per test

 

[Burgey]

It's definitely a murky pool across which one trespasses at their peril.

Ikr

 

[h_hurricane]

So , Statistically

Shaun Pollock / Hadlee for 60 tests + Chris Cairns in last 28 tests.

Cairns 53 runs and 3.5 wkts per test
Imran 55 runs and 2.8 wkts per test

I think you are terribly underrating Imran. Without even splitting the phases of his career, averaging 22 odd with the ball and 37 plus with the bat is ****ing awesome. It is difficult to find any cricketers to have done that. Probably Miller, but he had a shorter career.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

I think you are terribly underrating Imran. Without even splitting the phases of his career, averaging 22 odd with the ball and 37 plus with the bat is ****ing awesome. It is difficult to find any cricketers to have done that. Probably Miller, but he had a shorter career.

That's a misleading career record , he was a lower order batsman when he was a great bowler and he became a supporting bowler when he improved his batting.

There is no player in the history of cricket to combine ATG bowling and 35 AVG league batting throughout their career. ( Not including Mike Procter)

 

[aussie tragic]

There is no player in the history of cricket to combine ATG bowling and 35 AVG league batting throughout their career. ( Not including Mike Procter)

Keith Miller

Tests: batting 36.97, bowling 22.97
FC: batting 48.90, bowling 22.30

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Keith Miller

Tests: batting 36.97, bowling 22.97
FC: batting 48.90, bowling 22.30

Less number of wickets per match

 

[rtramdas]

So, rtramdas (location Kerala), what particular factor causes you to rate Indian all-rounder Kapil Dev above all the other (non-Indian) all-rounders being discussed?

Some more reasons why Botham was the best 80's allrounder:

200 runs and 20 wkts in a series
Botham (4), Dev (2), Miller (2), Sobers (2),Hadlee (1), Imran (1), Kallis (1)

50 and 5 wkts in an innings in same match
Botham (8), Hadlee (6), Dev (4), Imran (3), Miller (2), Sobers (2), Kallis (1)

100 and 13 wkts in a match
Only Ian Botham

I think I have already stated a lot of points w.r.t these. Yet, I don't find it strange if some body places Botham above Kapil as test batsman .This is because, it all comes down to which of the factors you give preference to. Some people give preference to 'Botham has 14 100s to Kapil's 8' and hence Botham a better test batsman' for them. Ok, I respect that . But I give preference to 'Kapil lags Botham only by 1 w.r.t >75 scores(16:15) in which Botham scored a bit more on the average where as Kapil scored a lot quickly on the average.Also Kapil has 2 nearly 'run a ball' 100s in Windies where as Botham has none; .Hence Kapil slightly better test batsman for me.

Other than this 'test batting' , I don't find any arena where Botham surpassed Kapil(again it can be either way). W.R.T test bowling I have already briefed my reasons.
In one dayers the gap between them is so huge even in plain stats . Then comes world cup performance and all . Kapil was the better captain & better all round fielder.

So apart from 'test batting(can be either way slightly depending on your preference) , in all other disciplines Kapil was convincingly ahead.

W.R.T data 'aussie tragic' posted above, they are all only the reflections of the 'circumstances & basic traits' of these 2 players. For instance , in big inns Botham played slightly more lengthy inns where as Kapil scored more aggressively.Similarly Kapil had huge adversitiies in bowling which I had specified in detail earlier . .Naturally these factors would have their effects on such data(which aussie tragic posted above) too.

 

[Burgey]

That's a misleading career record , he was a lower order batsman when he was a great bowler and he became a supporting bowler when he improved his batting.

There is no player in the history of cricket to combine ATG bowling and 35 AVG league batting throughout their career. ( Not including Mike Procter)

Yeah you’ve basically made a flat out goose of yourself with this post tbh

Response to this post is “Keith Miller”, whereupon you move the goal posts and say “less wpm” after the error was pointed out to you

 

[harsh.ag]

It really can't be called ATG bowling if the bowler is taking 3 wickets a game. All the great ones are near 4 and above.

 

[trundler]

Depends how you look at things. Miller had a completely different role. You could say his batting average undersells him a bit too.

 

[Burgey]

It really can't be called ATG bowling if the bowler is taking 3 wickets a game. All the great ones are near 4 and above.

Yeah but how is that the criteria he established?

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Yeah but how is that the criteria he established?

Miller is not an ATG bowler for me.

 

[Coronis]

I think I have already stated a lot of points w.r.t these. Yet, I don't find it strange if some body places Botham above Kapil as test batsman .This is because, it all comes down to which of the factors you give preference to. Some people give preference to 'Botham has 14 100s to Kapil's 8' and hence Botham a better test batsman' for them. Ok, I respect that . But I give preference to 'Kapil lags Botham only by 1 w.r.t >75 scores(16:15) in which Botham scored a bit more on the average where as Kapil scored a lot quickly on the average.Also Kapil has 2 nearly 'run a ball' 100s in Windies where as Botham has none; .Hence Kapil slightly better test batsman for me.

Other than this 'test batting' , I don't find any arena where Botham surpassed Kapil(again it can be either way). W.R.T test bowling I have already briefed my reasons.
In one dayers the gap between them is so huge even in plain stats . Then comes world cup performance and all . Kapil was the better captain & better all round fielder.

So apart from 'test batting(can be either way slightly depending on your preference) , in all other disciplines Kapil was convincingly ahead.

W.R.T data 'aussie tragic' posted above, they are all only the reflections of the 'circumstances & basic traits' of these 2 players. For instance , in big inns Botham played slightly more lengthy inns where as Kapil scored more aggressively.Similarly Kapil had huge adversitiies in bowling which I had specified in detail earlier . .Naturally these factors would have their effects on such data(which aussie tragic posted above) too.

Botham was a better bowler than Kapil anyway.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Kapil making two run a ball centuries against the West Indies makes him a better Test batsman than Botham? The first one he came in at 320 odd for 4 on a flat wicket in Delhi against Clarke, Phillip, Holder, Parry and Larry Gomes. The second one was a very strong attack, but he still came in at 320 odd for 5 in a match where only 27 wickets fell in five days. Good innings of course, but separating him as a batsman from Botham for that is stretching a point to say the least.

 

[Burgey]

Miller is not an ATG bowler for me.

But he literally fulfilled every requirement on your earlier criteria, and when that was pointed out you’ve gone “Yeah, but...”

 

[Coronis]

But he literally fulfilled every requirement on your earlier criteria, and when that was pointed out you’ve gone “Yeah, but...”

Didn’t you know? You can change your criteria at any time if you disagree with the outcome.

 

[rtramdas]

Kapil making two run a ball centuries against the West Indies makes him a better Test batsman than Botham? The first one he came in at 320 odd for 4 on a flat wicket in Delhi against Clarke, Phillip, Holder, Parry and Larry Gomes. The second one was a very strong attack, but he still came in at 320 odd for 5 in a match where only 27 wickets fell in five days. Good innings of course, but separating him as a batsman from Botham for that is stretching a point to say the least.

in basic stats they are more or less equal..... Kapil has 31.05 avg & 81 str: from 7th batting position where as Botham has 33.54 & 61 str: from 6th position. Then it all comes down to the data I projected as the reasons.Here, each to their own. I was referring to 2 inns of Kapil in the same 83 series in Windies . 100*(95 balls) & 98(97 balls) . First was against Marshall,Garner,Roberts & Holding. Had Kapil not played that inns, there was every chance of losing the match especially when taking into account that India lost the first mach of the series when Windies chased down 176 or so in mere 25 overs in the 4rth inns.2nd knock was in the same series vs FAB 4 bar Garner. Davies played instead. To play these 2 inns abroad vs perhaps the GOAT bowling unit that too virtually destroying them ,especially when considering the fact that the other 3 contemporary all rounders of him could not put a 50 score even once in Windies carries lots of weightage for me.Another reason that I place is that Kapil played
quite a few inns in Pakistan against a rampant 'Imran , Wasim & Waqar and played a few calibre inns of which a 73(53 balls) was the highlight.Botham never was interested to tour PAK in those days. Pakistan had the 2nd best bowling unit those days for 'what ever' reasons.To perform in Pakistan in those days for several reasons was such a tough act.
Apart from these, what all I said in my previous messages w.r.t their batting too plays their part.