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The best after the Don? CW ranked 25 contenders, here is the countdown thread

sunilz

International Regular
Hadlee was just the bowling version of Chanderpaul. Top shelf player in a mostly dud side apart from a few years.
Did u seriously compare Hadlee to chanderpaul?

Warne was the bowling version of Rahul Dravid. Both used to struggle against the best players of their era. Both have excellent record overseas. Both are massively over-rated by their fan base.
 

Burgey

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Yeah, he is a bowling Chanderpaul. I don't see how it's an insult to him. Both prolific and excellent, surrounded for the most part by low grade teams.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah, he is a bowling Chanderpaul. I don't see how it's an insult to him. Both prolific and excellent, surrounded for the most part by low grade teams.
One prolific and excellent in a Mercedes way and the other in a Toyota way being the problem, I suppose.
 

sunilz

International Regular
Yeah, he is a bowling Chanderpaul. I don't see how it's an insult to him. Both prolific and excellent, surrounded for the most part by low grade teams.
Then u are under-rating Hadlee. He won NZ a test series in AUSTRALIA something no Asian team has achieved . also helped in winning a test series in England. Has excellent record for a pace bowler in Asia. Hadlee would in all time 11 of all teams IMO.

Can't remember Chanderpaul winning his team a test series overseas. May be wrong though
 

Burgey

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I'm not underrating Hadlee at all. He was a great bowler. The point's just sailed over your head like a well struck seven iron. They're comparable because they both largely played in rubbish sides. Hadlee had that period in the mid-late 80s where NZ were very decent/ good and Chanders had a bit of a run with the WI when Ambrose, Walsh and Lara were around.

Whether Hadlee would make every country's all time XI is problematic, but he probably belongs in the argument for most countries. Don't know about Pakistan , WI, Australia and SA. But he'd be close. Very likely makes England's, walks into all four SC sides. Would pick him to sneak into Afghanistan and Ireland's line ups too.

Pakistan - Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Mahmood maybe ahead of him.
WI - Ambrose, Garner, Holding, Marshall would be ahead of him. Roberts close
Australia - Lillee, McGrath, Lindwall, Davo all probably ahead of him.
SA - would probably make it. Steyn would be ahead of him imo, Donald close. Not so sure about Pollock and Philander.

Also, I'm well aware no Asian team has won a test series in Australia, I remind fans from there about it every time they bang on about how bad Australia is on the SC. Particularly Pakistan supporters, now entering their third decade without a win here, and those from SL who've not won one since, well, literally ever.
 

vcs

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I'm not underrating Hadlee at all. He was a great bowler. The point's just sailed over your head like a well struck seven iron. They're comparable because they both largely played in rubbish sides. Hadlee had that period in the mid-late 80s where NZ were very decent/ good and Chanders had a bit of a run with the WI when Ambrose, Walsh and Lara were around.

Whether Hadlee would make every country's all time XI is problematic, but he probably belongs in the argument for most countries. Don't know about Pakistan , WI, Australia and SA. But he'd be close. Very likely makes England's, walks into all four SC sides. Would pick him to sneak into Afghanistan and Ireland's line ups too.

Pakistan - Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Mahmood maybe ahead of him.
WI - Ambrose, Garner, Holding, Marshall would be ahead of him. Roberts close
Australia - Lillee, McGrath, Lindwall, Davo all probably ahead of him.
SA - would probably make it. Steyn would be ahead of him imo, Donald close. Not so sure about Pollock and Philander.

Also, I'm well aware no Asian team has won a test series in Australia, I remind fans from there about it every time they bang on about how bad Australia is on the SC. Particularly Pakistan supporters, now entering their third decade without a win here, and those from SL who've not won one since, well, literally ever.
Would find it very hard to rate Waqar over him TBH. Even Wasim is tenuous, he had incredible skill as a bowler but most people find it hard to put him ahead of McGrath/Marshall/Ambrose/Imran etc. on achievements. Hadlee definitely is in that group for me. Saying that, I never watched him, but his stats are immense.
 

Zinzan

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I'm not underrating Hadlee at all. He was a great bowler. The point's just sailed over your head like a well struck seven iron. They're comparable because they both largely played in rubbish sides. Hadlee had that period in the mid-late 80s where NZ were very decent/ good and Chanders had a bit of a run with the WI when Ambrose, Walsh and Lara were around.

Whether Hadlee would make every country's all time XI is problematic, but he probably belongs in the argument for most countries. Don't know about Pakistan , WI, Australia and SA. But he'd be close. Very likely makes England's, walks into all four SC sides. Would pick him to sneak into Afghanistan and Ireland's line ups too.

Pakistan - Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Mahmood maybe ahead of him.
WI - Ambrose, Garner, Holding, Marshall would be ahead of him. Roberts close
Australia - Lillee, McGrath, Lindwall, Davo all probably ahead of him.
SA - would probably make it. Steyn would be ahead of him imo, Donald close. Not so sure about Pollock and Philander.


Also, I'm well aware no Asian team has won a test series in Australia, I remind fans from there about it every time they bang on about how bad Australia is on the SC. Particularly Pakistan supporters, now entering their third decade without a win here, and those from SL who've not won one since, well, literally ever.
Okay you are just trolling. Phew I was really thinking you were serious for a moment there. Mahmood better than Hadlee?

Now can we get back to Lillee being a bowling Ian Bell. I don't see how it's an insult to him. Both prolific and excellent, surrounded for the most part by decent to good grade teams.
 

Zinzan

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Like anyone on this forum can have a reasonable idea of how to rate fazal mahmood
Based on that rationale, you might as well say the same for any player from that 50s-60s era with a good record then.

Yet we seem to compare others across different eras all the time on this forum, especially in many of your 'greatest' threads.

Why is Mahmood any different?
 

Bolo

State Captain
It's important to remember that Murali's career hadn't really blossomed at that stage and Warne was simply spectacular before around 1998 when his shoulder was injured.

The Warne most people remember these days is the Warne of 04-07 who was a top shelf bowler but mostly because he out-thought his opponents. The Warne of 93-97 was stunning in his capabilities. He could do things with the cricket ball that nobody had dreamed of. His flipper was insanely dangerous and he would run through sides with it.
You just described Imran. Only you left out the batting, captaincy, legacy building, iconic effect and most importantly the length of his career.

Alternatively you just described 1/6 of Barnes's career.

5 years is a purple patch. It doesn't get you anywhere near to being one of the players of the century unless you have an otherwise excellent career to stack on top of it. If Warne had batted like Bradman until 97 on top of his bowling I might still be tempted to question his inclusion.
 

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Whether Hadlee would make every country's all time XI is problematic, but he probably belongs in the argument for most countries. Don't know about Pakistan , WI, Australia and SA. But he'd be close. Very likely makes England's, walks into all four SC sides. Would pick him to sneak into Afghanistan and Ireland's line ups too.

Pakistan - Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Mahmood maybe ahead of him.
WI - Ambrose, Garner, Holding, Marshall would be ahead of him. Roberts close
Australia - Lillee, McGrath, Lindwall, Davo all probably ahead of him.
SA - would probably make it. Steyn would be ahead of him imo, Donald close. Not so sure about Pollock and Philander.
Nah. I'd put him ahead of the bolded.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You just described Imran. Only you left out the batting, captaincy, legacy building, iconic effect and most importantly the length of his career.

Alternatively you just described 1/6 of Barnes's career.

5 years is a purple patch. It doesn't get you anywhere near to being one of the players of the century unless you have an otherwise excellent career to stack on top of it. If Warne had batted like Bradman until 97 on top of his bowling I might still be tempted to question his inclusion.
You're also forgetting how few decent spinners the world had seen since Benaud retired. All of the household names since then didn't have the greatest records.

Warne was seen as an absolute freak because not only was he able to do heaps with the ball but he single- handedly revived spin bowling as an art form.

I'm thinking that you dramatically under - rate Warne's impact on the game by the end of the 20th century. Just because the game is now spinner- dominated doesn't mean it was back then.
 

Burgey

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Would find it very hard to rate Waqar over him TBH. Even Wasim is tenuous, he had incredible skill as a bowler but most people find it hard to put him ahead of McGrath/Marshall/Ambrose/Imran etc. on achievements. Hadlee definitely is in that group for me. Saying that, I never watched him, but his stats are immense.
This is why I say he’s in the argument. I’m not the one saying he would make every country’s all time XI here.

Kiwis are known for being notoriously balanced, having chips on both shoulders. But comparing Hadlee to Chanderpaul isn’t an insult to either. The situations they found themselves in wrt to the strength of the teams the played in is pretty accurate. You could also say he was a bowling Allan Border in that sense. Doesn’t mean he isn’t a great player ffs. Those blokes carried their often mediocre teams and stood out like dogs balls. It’s hardly an insult to any of them.
 

Bolo

State Captain
You're also forgetting how few decent spinners the world had seen since Benaud retired. All of the household names since then didn't have the greatest records.

Warne was seen as an absolute freak because not only was he able to do heaps with the ball but he single- handedly revived spin bowling as an art form.

I'm thinking that you dramatically under - rate Warne's impact on the game by the end of the 20th century. Just because the game is now spinner- dominated doesn't mean it was back then.
In 1992 we had warne, Kumble, Muralitharan, and Qadir (ODIs only by that stage) playing. Qadir may not have been an atg great, but the other 3 were. Qadir preceded all of them, so maybe he deserves W5 status? Or Kumble, since he preceded Warne and Murali?

We didnt see another ATG in the 20th century (or even in Warnes entire career) so I'm not sure how you think he changed the nature of bowling. He started playing during a period of great fast bowlers. The fact that the abundance of fast bowlers eventually dried up (in the 21st century, not the 20th) doesn't mean he, or any of these others changed bowling.
 

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Kumble had a decent record around then but never really announced himself in the way Warne did in 1993.
Murali averaged around 30 up until the late nineties and didn't really burst onto the scene until he cleaned up England.
I've already been over Qadir's mediocrity on here before. He lacked impact outside his home country.
In 1992 the West Indies four pace bowler strategy was still the gold standard. By the end of the decade it was completely outdated. You can argue as to the cause of the change, but it's hard to deny that Warne was the face of it. That no more great spinners were produced in the early-mid 00's then is neither here nor there. Yes there were other spinners, some even did better in at certain times. But none were the personality that Warne was.
 

Bolo

State Captain
Kumble had a decent record around then but never really announced himself in the way Warne did in 1993.
Murali averaged around 30 up until the late nineties and didn't really burst onto the scene until he cleaned up England.
I've already been over Qadir's mediocrity on here before. He lacked impact outside his home country.
In 1992 the West Indies four pace bowler strategy was still the gold standard. By the end of the decade it was completely outdated. You can argue as to the cause of the change, but it's hard to deny that Warne was the face of it. That no more great spinners were produced in the early-mid 00's then is neither here nor there. Yes there were other spinners, some even did better in at certain times. But none were the personality that Warne was.
I'm not arguing against Warne being better than any other spinner in the 90s. He was streets ahead. I'm saying he didn't influence the development of other great spinners from his era because they were already playing, and that a few years of greatness does not make you one of the top players of the century.

As for changing the game, 4 fast bowlers never became a standard, it had just been slightly less abnormal due to a combination of great fast bowlers, fast pitches, mediocre spinners, and good part timers.

Warne didn't influence how the game was played. He had no impact on how other bowlers bowled- there were plenty of leggies around before and after him, but no one has ever bowled like him. Before and after him, spinners always made the grade if they were expected to be close to as good as the quicks, or people chopped and changed with bits and pieces players/ part-timers when no quality spinners were available (RSA until recently when not playing 4 quicks, WI until they stopped producing good quicks, AUS some of the time between Warne and Lyon, England currently, NZ most of recent history).

Have a look at what was actually going on with team composition since the rise of WI:

Australia- often didn't play a spinner, but had a string of front line batsmen that were probably as good at bowling as specialist spinners. When they were without good part-timers (only Border), they tried mediocre spinners. Fast decks
WI- once in many lifetimes run of quicks, lack of spin options, fast decks. Always had a bit of part-time spin, but barely worth mentioning.
Eng- really not too sure what they were doing from early 80s until early 2000s.
NZ- pretty much always played a spinner in the 80s, chopped and changed 90s pre-vettori- clearly not much impact from either WI 4 quick strategy or Warne.
RSA- not relevant to pre-warne discussion as they joined cricket about the same time as Warne. Chopped and changed a lot with garbage spinners or all seam. 1st time they got a decent spinner (Adams) he became a fixture. Always had fast bowling allrounders, so a spinner has always been in unfulfilled dream and have often gone bits and pieces to compensate.
Zim- same as RSA, but always at least 1 spinner
Pak- Always played spin, despite AtG quicks
India- always spin, only getting a good pace attack together now
Lanka- almost only spin early on, adding more pace over time.

Windies 4 man pace may have had a slight impact on 1 or 2 of these- questionably AUS, I'm not sure about England, not really RSA (apartheid isolation + the fast bowling culture pre-dated WI rise). The rest all always played spin. Which of these teams Warne could have had an impact on in reviving spin, I'm not sure. England maybe? No idea. 1 team (potentially) plus your own is not exactly shaping the face of cricket.

Non-SC teams play in the SC a lot more often these days, and have maybe started to give a little more leeway to mediocre spinners to blood them so they stop getting smashed as badly when they tour, but I'm not sure that is even particularly true. Rules on overrate due to TV has changed too- teams might be willing to get fined by playing without a spinner in a game or 2, but it can't be done too often or you will be getting a player banned every game.

We saw the 1st game I know of that ever contained 10 specialist quicks last month, and one of the teams involved was India.

Warne changed Australia's strategy when he was in the team because he was good enough. And when he wasn't, McGill was. However Australians (and I'm assuming English as well looking at how many votes he got) consider him to have changed cricket, it really was just one exceptional set of bowlers that made people think things had changed at all, when in reality it was business as usual for pretty much everyone else, adjusting available resources to conditions before, during, and after Warne.
 

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