The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[TheJediBrah]

That first NSW XI will actually beat a combined rest of the world atg XI.

I don't know if they'd beat it but it would be damn close and that's absurd

 

[bagapath]

te

Let's see:

Barnes
Morris
Bradman
Smith
Waugh
Miller
Gilchrist +
Davidson
Cummins
O'Reilly
McGrath

Vs

Hobbs
Hutton
Headley
Sachin
Viv
Sobers
Ames+
Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
Murali

Edge to the world imo between the two actually. The world's openers make up for Bradman. And the world bats until number 10. So for me the world has the slight advantage in batting. Bowling is edge to world as well. Because the main fast bowlers probably cancel each other out but Murali is greater than O'Reilly. I rate O'Reilly highly, he's just an unproven commodity.

technically, the rest of the world can have Warne as the spinner

 

[TheJediBrah]

technically, the rest of the world can have Warne as the spinner

Good point that would make it a lot stronger than having Murali

 

[Slifer]

te


technically, the rest of the world can have Warne as the spinner

Yeah but it felt a little wrong using an Australian. But Warne would come in for Murali, yes. Wanted to include Flower or DeVilliers as a keeper to counter Gilchrist but with the two atg openers and plus Hadlee/Imran/Marshall they counter Gilchrist and Bradman imo in the batting stakes.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

NSW xi-
Barnes
Morris
Bradman*
Smith
McCabe
Waugh
Gilchrist+
Miller
Lindwall
O’Reilly
McGrath

ROW Xi-
Hobbs
Hutton
Kallis
Sachin
Viv
Sobers*
Knott+
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Barnes

Among the best players to have graced any sports to captain their respective sides.

ROW seems bit better on paper Imo.

 

[shortpitched713]

Not that strong enough. India have too many Ranji teams and hence, the strong players are distributed more.

Gavaskar
Rohit
Kambli
Tendulkar
Muzumdar
Dighe
Bahutule
Powar
Agarkar
Zaheer
Kuruvilla

Honestly, a bit better than I expected even.

Doesn't hurt to have the goat (Ajit Agarkar, of course).

 

[shortpitched713]

Let's see:

Barnes
Morris
Bradman
Smith
Waugh
Miller
Gilchrist +
Davidson
Cummins
O'Reilly
McGrath

Vs

Hobbs
Hutton
Headley
Sachin
Viv
Sobers
Ames+
Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
Murali

Edge to the world imo between the two actually. The world's openers make up for Bradman. And the world bats until number 10. So for me the world has the slight advantage in batting.

Nah mate, any side with even competent bats + Bradman is going to be better than any other even non-Bradman batting side you can muster. Those on CW who think otherwise, don't really know how numbers work. Which come to think of it, might be most of you lot, given how many of you think Warne performed better in his Test career than Murali.

 

[ataraxia]

even competent bats

Gimme an average here. 30? 35? 40? 45?

 

[Slifer]

Nah mate, any side with even competent bats + Bradman is going to be better than any other even non-Bradman batting side you can muster. Those on CW who think otherwise, don't really know how numbers work. Which come to think of it, might be most of you lot, given how many of you think Warne performed better in his Test career than Murali.

Umm no. Bradman’s advantage is not going to be that great or at all if a team like the one listed bats down to number ten. Do the numbers, let's go.

 

[shortpitched713]

Umm no. Bradman’s advantage is not going to be that great or at all if a team like the one listed bats down to number ten. Do the numbers, let's go.

****, skimmed over that part in OP. You could have a point, as I normally use this rule of thumb to compare "specialist batting lineups", like down to 6. You've still got to make up like 40-45ish runs at least, over the course of 10 positions, which isn't a given even batting to 10.

 

[shortpitched713]

Gimme an average here. 30? 35? 40? 45?

See below

This has nothing to do with your actual point, so don't think I'm nitpicking you, but I hear a lot of time that Bradman was twice as good, or worth twice as much as an ATG batsman.

That's objectively NOT true:

ATG Batting Lineup
Hayden ~ 50
Average Opener ~ 35
Dravid ~ 52.5
Sanga ~ 57.5
Kallis ~ 55
Sum ~ 250


Average Test Team + Bradman
Opener ~ 35
Opener ~ 35
Bradman ~ 100
Mid Bat ~ 40
Mid Bat ~ 40
Sum ~ 250

So, to conclude, when you consider players' value over replacement, Bradman by himself ends up being worth about as much as 4 ATG batsmen in a lineup combined.

PS: I always thought that when playing alongside Bradman, if you had a mix up between the wickets, you'd want to run yourself out instead of him. And it bears out, as he was only run out once out of his 80 innings. Poor Bert Oldfield must have felt a right **** when that happened, although it was still early in Bradman's career, so probably not as egregious. If you run out a Bradman in his prime heyday, you probably ought to just get dropped for sheer stupidity.

 

[Slifer]

****, skimmed over that part in OP. You could have a point, as I normally use this rule of thumb to compare "specialist batting lineups", like down to 6. You've still got to make up like 40-45ish runs at least, over the course of 10 positions, which isn't a given even batting to 10.

The problem is not just Bradman, it's fcking Gilchrist as well. The fact that you have both in the same team is unfair....lol lol.

 

[ataraxia]

Very simply:

Hobbs (55)
Hutton (55)
Viv (55)
Tendulkar (55)
Smith (55)

= 275, adjusting averages all to 55 because obvs raw average doesn't tell the full story

 

[Slifer]

****, skimmed over that part in OP. You could have a point, as I normally use this rule of thumb to compare "specialist batting lineups", like down to 6. You've still got to make up like 40-45ish runs at least, over the course of 10 positions, which isn't a given even batting to 10.

If you went with NSW that looked like this:

Morris
Barnes
Don
Smith
Waugh
Border
Gilchrist +
Miller
Lindwall
Davidson
O'Reilly

That team would have the batting advantage regardless of whatever other XI I pick. Freaking unreal if you ask me.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Seems a little odd to me to see Gilchrist in a NSW ATG XI when he played all of 9 Shield games for them at an average of 20.76. Wasn't keeping wicket either iirc, Phil Emery was the first choice gloveman for NSW at the time

If it's a list of best NSW born cricketers then it's definitely fair for him to be there, but on performances for NSW he isn't even close. Gilly's career didn't start to properly take off until he moved to WA

 

[honestbharani]

Zaheer playing for Mumbai is a bit of cheat code too but I think he was their captain for a season or two. He was playing for another team most of his career but Mumbai just paid him more to get him transferred to them for the last couple of years of his career. Direct poaching I think.

 

[CricAddict]

Zaheer playing for Mumbai is a bit of cheat code too but I think he was their captain for a season or two. He was playing for another team most of his career but Mumbai just paid him more to get him transferred to them for the last couple of years of his career. Direct poaching I think.

He was not picked by Mumbai Ranji team and so played for Baroda. But he was a Mumbai guy till under 19.

Baroda at that time had a good line-up. Zaheer Khan, Munaf Patel and the Pathan brothers.

 

[honestbharani]

They have a good line up now too... Pandyas, Hooda etc.

 

[Slifer]

Seems a little odd to me to see Gilchrist in a NSW ATG XI when he played all of 9 Shield games for them at an average of 20.76. Wasn't keeping wicket either iirc, Phil Emery was the first choice gloveman for NSW at the time

If it's a list of best NSW born cricketers then it's definitely fair for him to be there, but on performances for NSW he isn't even close. Gilly's career didn't start to properly take off until he moved to WA

People like me know very little about Shield cricket. Who would be a reasonable replacement then.

 

[ankitj]

Not that strong enough. India have too many Ranji teams and hence, the strong players are distributed more.

Gavaskar
Rohit
Kambli
Tendulkar
Muzumdar
Dighe
Bahutule
Powar
Agarkar
Zaheer
Kuruvilla

Very interesting that Bahutule is the best spinner to come out of Mumbai! Most of our spinners seen to have come from TN, Karnataka, UP and Punjab.