The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Red]

Why would you not pick Bevan in your Aus XI? And why Lee over Lillee?

I don't like or rate Bevan and Lee is a better ODI bowler than Lillee

 

[stephen]

Why don't you like Bevan and what makes you think Lee was better than Lillee?

 

[vcs]

^ My rankings..

1) Australia - (great all-round side - no real weaknesses)

2) South Africa - (very strong, just lacking spinner, could play Tahir)

3) = Pakistan/West Indies (Pak, good balanced side, WI - excellent side, lacking spin & batting depth of other sides)

5) New Zealand (Excellent allround side with very underrated & very deep batting, Vettori - top 3-4 ODI spinners ever)

6) Sri Lanka (lacking a little in pace bowling, but strong everywhere else)

7) India (strong batting, relatively very weak bowling, hard to see many of those bowlers making other sides)

8) England (good side, without being great - very few genuine ODI stars)

India are a better tournament side than most of the ones you've rated above them. They are better overall ODI sides, sure, but I would bet on India to outperform SA, Pakistan and NZ most of the time in a World Cup. SL are also very good in ICC tournaments.

 

[OverratedSanity]

India are pretty comfortably better tan NZ/SL imo

 

[Jono]

that's racist

 

[Zinzan]

India are a better tournament side than most of the ones you've rated above them. They are better overall ODI sides, sure, but I would bet on India to outperform SA, Pakistan and NZ most of the time in a World Cup. SL are also very good in ICC tournaments.

I took that into account. If we're really imagining those players in those teams at their best, India's bowling looks tremendously weak, as does SL's pace bowling.

It's quite staggering someone like Zaheer Khan, who was at best a useful bowler could make their all time best side, same with Ashwin (the ODI version), Harby & Srinath if we're honest, and I liked Srinath, but jeez, look at some of the other names in the other teams.

 

[Zinzan]

India are pretty comfortably better tan NZ/SL imo

Surprised you'd think that

 

[Jono]

harsh.

 

[Zinzan]

If I was doing an Indian/NZ combined XI for example, only 4 Indians would make it.

Turner
Tendulkar
Kohli
Crowe
Taylor
Dhoni+
Cairns
K Dev
Vettori
Hadlee
Bond

 

[Mike5181]

If you analyse Turner's ODI record, he scored most of his runs against no names (171* against East Africa) and the weaker sides of his time. Guys like Ganguly, Guptill, Sharma, etc. should be some distance ahead of him.

 

[honestbharani]

Am I missing something or the fact Zak and Kapil were amongst the best bowlers of their times, when at their best, something that is escaping Z here?


Add in Harbhajan and maybe Jadeja and that is not a bad attack at all, esp. if you are playing in typical batting friendly conditions where the ability to bowl 1/56 in 10 overs might end up being more valuable than 3/60..


FWIW, I think there are a lot of equally matched sides when discussing AT ODI XIs, excepting RSA, Aus and WI and any of the other sides have just as good a chance of beating the rest as the rest do of beating them. Lot will depend on hypothetical conditions, pitch etc. Its not as straight forward as it might be with test match AT line ups.

 

[Zinzan]

If you analyse Turner's ODI record, he scored most of his runs against no names (171* against East Africa) and the weaker sides of his time. Guys like Ganguly, Guptill, Sharma, etc. should be some distance ahead of him.

Even if you remove his score against East Africa (and while you're there remove all good players scores against minnows ), Turner's record was still amazing considering the time he played, and he and Zaheer Abbas were easily the best two in those early days after Viv, who was obviously out on his own.

In Turner's era, it was considered good to average 28 with a SR of 60, the great attacking Gordon Greenidge's was 64 for example. Even if you remove his best innings against EA, he still averages 42 with a SR of about 68 which was superb in the 1970-1983 era.

Above all that he revolutionised ODI batting, my uncle always rants on how much the Aussie commentators used to gush over his ODI batting the WSC games of the early 80s, he was ahead of his time.

Turner is easily the best ODI opening bat from NZ, Guptill would be next for this combined team, with Sharma/Ganguly slightly behind him.

 

[Zinzan]

Am I missing something or the fact Zak and Kapil were amongst the best bowlers of their times, when at their best, something that is escaping Z here?


Add in Harbhajan and maybe Jadeja and that is not a bad attack at all, esp. if you are playing in typical batting friendly conditions where the ability to bowl 1/56 in 10 overs might end up being more valuable than 3/60..
.

Mate, with respect, we are talking the best of the ATG teams here, and when we have bowlers of the class of Hadlee, Bond, Vettori, Wasim, McGrath, Murali, Pollock etc..to name a few , then yes Zaheer Khan, Harby & Ashwin look decidedly average by comparison.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Surprised you'd think that

ok

 

[Zinzan]

ok

Well considering you and I have had this very debate before.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Turner's 3 ODI hundreds: One against East Africa, one against a SL which was barely an infant at international level, and one against an Indian attack with Abid Ali and Mohinder Amarnath opening the bowling.

Guptill/Ganguly/Sharma pretty comfortably better than him. 3 of the best ODI openers of their time.

 

[Zinzan]

All fairly meaningless considering ODI batsmen didn't score many hundreds against anyone in that era. Turner was one of the greats. Arguably the most underrated ODI bat of all time. You only need to look at some of the scorecards in WSC in Australia to see the rate he generally scored at compared to the other NZ/Aust top order bats.

 

[honestbharani]

Mate, with respect, we are talking the best of the ATG teams here, and when we have bowlers of the class of Hadlee, Bond, Vettori, Wasim, McGrath, Murali, Pollock etc..to name a few , then yes Zaheer Khan, Harby & Ashwin look decidedly average by comparison.

Spot the odd man out there. Of course Hadlee and Bond are better than any ODI bowler India ever had. Also, Sachin, Kohli and Dhoni are all better than any ODI batsman NZ has ever had. That is all there is. The rest is just very good players vs very good players and there is no certain way to say A will beat B.

All fairly meaningless considering ODI batsmen didn't score many hundreds against anyone in that era. Turner was one of the greats. Arguably the most underrated ODI bat of all time. You only need to look at some of the scorecards in WSC in Australia to see the rate he generally scored at compared to the other NZ/Aust top order bats.

Turner is definitely under rated. He is also definitely not in the same league as Ganguly, Sharma as ODI openers. I would even say Guptill is better. And Sehwag in wtih a shout at being just as good.

 

[Zinzan]

Spot the odd man out there. Of course Hadlee and Bond are better than any ODI bowler India ever had. .

On Vettori. I can't remember his exact best period, but I did a random query from 2003 & this is what it came up with. Bowling records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

That is unbelievable economy for a spinner. The likes of Harby isn't even close.

Vettori may have generally played for a weak side, but he was a genuine ATG ODI bowler... his ER here is phenomenal, especially considering ODI pitches in NZ offered him nothing.

This is going to be really unpopular I know because of WCs, but imo Vettori was a better ODI bowler than Warne ..(runs away)... He might have struggled to take wickets at Test level, but jeez he was something with the white ball.

 

[Zinzan]

Spot the odd man out there. Of course Hadlee and Bond are better than any ODI bowler India ever had. Also, Sachin, Kohli and Dhoni are all better than any ODI batsman NZ has ever had. That is all there is. The rest is just very good players vs very good players and there is no certain way to say A will beat B.





Turner is definitely under rated. He is also definitely not in the same league as Ganguly, Sharma as ODI openers. I would even say Guptill is better. And Sehwag in wtih a shout at being just as good.

We'll just have to disagree with this and I like how you say Ganguly and Sharma & even Guptill I'd take Guptill in ODIs above either Sharma or Ganguly any day of the week.