The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[h_hurricane]

Still a lower average than Blignaut

Yeah, my thought was, if the bowling average was pretty mediocre, why not pick a player with a decent batting skill ? Need every bit of that in a minnow team.

And yes, Tikolo would have been a good enough test bat based on that FC record. No harm in having him ahead of Taylor.

 

[CricAddict]

It is a huge thread and so can't search easily. Has anyone posted ATG XI by continents here?
Asia vs Africa vs Europe and
North America vs Oceania can be good contests.

Europe and NA can probably be combined since they have just WI and Eng.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Tikolo didn't play any tests.



Brandes played only 10 tests and averaged 36 with the ball.

You haven't got a clue, that was mainly because he was always injured. Definitely a better bowler than Jarvis and especially Blignaut, even though his best was never really seen at test level

Then again Bligs could effectively be used as a batting all rounder in that squad

Mortaza a good call but he has the same problem of being injured too often to fully show his worth at Test level

 

[jimmy101]

Yeah, sometimes you gotta look more deeply than the number of Tests played & averages. Averages are meaningless without context.

For example, just say you love 70's prog-rock & 90's grunge-rock. Technically that would mean, on average, you love 80's glam-rock. It's a pretty dumb analogy I know, but I'm sure y'all see what I'm trying to say here.

If averages were the be-all & end-all statistical measure than good ol' Andy Ganteaume would be universally regarded as a better bat than Bradman.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Glam rock is amazing shut up

 

[jimmy101]

OS is my "cherry pie".

 

[TheJediBrah]

Blignaut was more of an ODI specialist anyway. I'd sub in Murtagh for Blignaut & perhaps even Mortaza for Jarvis.

Sean Ervine must be close, I always rated him more than Blignaut. More of a batting all-rounder though

 

[jimmy101]

Oof, forgot about Sean Ervine. Definitely worth a shout. On that note, Sean Williams isn't a million miles away from making the team either imo.

 

[ankitj]

No. I never said that.

He had the best record in Aus and among the top 2 in WI as well though. Waqar was pretty poor in Aus across 2-3 trips.I would have all 4 of them to cover all bases.

It's a fairly arbitrary selection. Aus and WI were not top 2 teams in playing years of any of those players. Don't know why SA, NZ and England should not be included .

 

[srbhkshk]

It's a fairly arbitrary selection. Aus and WI were not top 2 teams in playing years of any of those players. Don't know why SA, NZ and England should not be included .

I think his reasoning was that WI/Aus are less of a trouble due to swing and more due to bounce compared to the other three, I am not sure how well that holds up for Windies at that point of time.

 

[harsh.ag]

Wasim was good in Aus and Windies and, in fact, struggled in England and South Africa. Kapil's not required.

 

[ankitj]

In summary, h_hurricane really overrates Kapil Dev. He is the best fast bowler and all-rounder we produced, but he is not that great compared to fast bowlers and all-rounders from other teams.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I think it's more that he overrates slices of career performances against x opposition as a parameter.

It'd be like using performance in Australia/SA to pick laxman over dravid. It may be true he did better in those conditions but how much does it really matter in the grand scheme of things when the much larger statistical sample clearly shows who the far better player was.

 

[harsh.ag]

Sometimes, there is a point with the slicing and dicing. And you probably want players with different strengths in a team. But this one doesn't pass muster

 

[h_hurricane]

Sometimes, there is a point with the slicing and dicing. And you probably want players with different strengths in a team. But this one doesn't pass muster

That is all I said. I didn't pick Kapil over Waqar or Waqar over Kapil. Picked both in fact.

 

[ankitj]

Sometimes, there is a point with the slicing and dicing. And you probably want players with different strengths in a team. But this one doesn't pass muster

Yeah, as long as the slicing has some sound basis. For instance if you are looking at a spinner's record, you ask how they did against India (especially in 1990-2010 period) as they present greatest challenge to spinners. But it is pointless to bring up record of a fast bowler against India because India aren't greatest challenge to fast bowlers.

 

[h_hurricane]

I think it's more that he overrates slices of career performances against x opposition as a parameter.

It'd be like using performance in Australia/SA to pick laxman over dravid. It may be true he did better in those conditions but how much does it really matter in the grand scheme of things when the much larger statistical sample clearly shows who the far better player was.

It was not from the perspective of Laxman over Dravid though. It was from the perspective of "I am picking an ATG Indian team to tour abroad. I am realizing that Dravid's record in Aus and SA is not that flashy. Shouldn't go ahead and provide more support to batting by picking Laxman as well ? "

 

[Teja.]

Kapil's strengths are not highlighted best in an exercise like an AT XI and he's not as good as Imran and Hadlee but I do think he's underrated on CW.

The guy played 17 years consecutively missing only one game in between as a fast bowling workhorse + all rounder with 5000+ runs. In 1983, he played 18 tests. They were against the two best batting line-ups (WI and Pak) of his time home and away against both sides. He took 75 wickets @ 23.2 in those 18 tests with 5 5-fers and outperformed some of the greatest pacers of all-time. He also spearheaded a near minnow India side to win the World Cup that year. Over his career, he had 89 wickets @ 24.8 in 25 tests against the WI.

He's a truly extraordinary one-of-a-kind cricketer in a way that overall career stats and AT XIs (when we're sub-consciously picking a side to play for one test/series) don't measure. The Ironman of test cricket.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Kapil's strengths are not highlighted best in an exercise like an AT XI and he's not as good as Imran and Hadlee but I do think he's underrated on CW.

The guy played 17 years consecutively missing only one game in between as a fast bowling workhorse + all rounder with 5000+ runs. In 1983, he played 18 tests. They were against the two best batting line-ups (WI and Pak) of his time home and away against both sides. He took 75 wickets @ 23.2 in those 18 tests with 5 5-fers and outperformed some of the greatest pacers of all-time. He also spearheaded a near minnow India side to win the World Cup that year. Over his career, he had 89 wickets @ 24.8 in 25 tests against the WI.

He's a truly extraordinary one-of-a-kind cricketer in a way that overall career stats and AT XIs (when we're sub-consciously picking a side to play for one test/series) don't measure. The Ironman of test cricket.

So, to summarise, what you're saying is that he did it only when it mattered?
Therefore, Burgey must think he's the greatest ever then.
So, in conclusion, PFK = Burgey?

 

[Teja.]

So, to summarise, what you're saying is that he did it only when it mattered?
Therefore, Burgey must think he's the greatest ever then.
So, in conclusion, PFK = Burgey?

sir this is a wendys.