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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

trundler

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So my views have also evolved somewhat as well over the years.

First of all, I think that there are 2 types of ATG XI. An honorary one, and a practical one, where we can go back in time and select a team that we would choose a team to represent up vs the Martians. And even that team may vary a bit in different conditions, Murali in for a pacer if playing in India for example.

The 1st such XI varies little from person to person.

Sir Jack Hobbs
Sir Leonard Hutton
Sir Donald Bradman
Sir I.V.A. Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers
Adam Gilchrist
Imran Khan
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Glenn McGrath

You have the 5 Wisden cricketers of the century, Gilly changed the standard of expectations for his position, and kept to 2 members of the attack with distinction. The sheer weight of numbers for McGrath and Tendulkar are just too much to ignore. Marshall for me was just the best, had it all, could do it all, and did it every where and against everyone. Hutton was just amazing on both sides of the war and had so much to overcome and he did it with perfect technique and determination.

A team i would choose to take on the Martians, that's when it would become a bit more contentious and subjective.

Barry Richards
Len Hutton
Don Bradman
Garry Sobers


Adam Gilchrist

Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Glenn McGrath

The other slots, even in my mind requires some additional discussion. From watching even more cricket of late, one sees it not just about the best 11 batsmen and bowlers, it's also about team balance. A batsman or 2 who can bowl, at least to hold up an end, keeping it tight or breaking up a partnership. The current test series also reminded me of the importance of a great cordon (especially 2nd slip), especially in this hypothetical highest of levels. Finally, while not necessarily needing bowling all rounders, at least your no. 8 and 9 should be able to handle a bat.

For my middle order, one slot must go to either Richards or Tendulkar, possibly even both. But part of me wants a special "3" way player. A supreme batsman equal to or just below the two previously named; a superb slip fielder to join Sobers (my 2nd slip) in 1st; and someone who can also assist or suoerceed Sir Garry as a 5th bowler, especially if two spinners are utilised.

An initial thought went to Bobby Simpson, but he was best as an opener and if anyone could replace the two named it would be Sunny. So the three in contention for me would be.
Wally Hammond, Greg Chappel or Jacques Kallis. If I rank them as batsman, it's near impossible to separate them. An argument can be made for any. As slip fielders, Kallis (As with his batting and bowling) was reliably safe, the other 2 though were just absolutely special. As bowlers Jacques is slightly ahead of the other 2. One will make the squad and possibly the 11. Because he would be best suited to come on first or second change if required, belive it has to be Kallis.

My only other difficult choice is the no. 8 holding all rounder / possible second spinner choice. The second spinner woukd of course be Murali. The allrondwr slot is more difficult.

With Glenn and Maco sharing the new ball, an old ball specialist would be ideal. Wasim Akram fills that role and as a legit bowling all rounder better than any. His lefty variation is also a plus. My contentious alternative is Mike Proctor. He was in my mind the greatest legitimate bowling allrounder who never got the chance to prove it. He was a legitimate front line bowler (unlike Miller) and consistently a borderline front batsman (more so than Imran imo). But because the person selected would be handling the older ball in marathon spells with Warne, and because he was (despite previously discussed short comings) a magician and A legit lower order batsman, I will start with Akram.

So.. The base XI

Barry Richards
Sir Leonard Hutton
Sir Donald Bradman
Sir I.V.A Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers
Adam Gilchrist
Wasim Akram
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Glenn McGrath

Jacques Kallis

Barry was just recognised by all who saw him as just the best. Lillee ranks him with Sobers and his Caribbean namesake. He has to play.

I am a still a little concerned about the cordon, but Viv, Barry and Shane should be good enough surrounding Sobers.

The alternate 11 for spimning conditions.

Barry Richards
Len Hutton
Don Bradman
Garry Sobers
Sachin Tendulkar
Jacques Kallis
Allan Knott
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Muttiah Muralitharan
Glenn McGrath

Mike Proctor

Yeah. The tail there is a bit long and may require Gilchrist again, depending on how he handles Murali in practice.

The rest of the squad not so far listed

Sunil Gavaskar

Brian Lara
Dennis Lillee

The last two being on alert if required.

The forums though are welcome.
I'm curious why you left out Hobbs. Also Khan was arguably both a superior bowler and batsman to Akram. I'll have him at 8. Also I guess the spin XI's middle order needs an out-and-out aggressive batsman which I suppose Lara fits perfectly. Plus he's probably the greatest player of spin recently too so he should play.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Hobbs makes the first one. For the 2nd one, I belive Barry and Hutton were just the best two openers ever. Hobbs played in a different era, a different time with different rules. Like Barnes, I can't swear as to how he would perform in these times.

Imran, woukdnt being it back up, but have given my reasons extensively in previous posts.
 

trundler

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Hobbs makes the first one. For the 2nd one, I belive Barry and Hutton were just the best two openers ever. Hobbs played in a different era, a different time with different rules. Like Barnes, I can't swear as to how he would perform in these times.

Imran, woukdnt being it back up, but have given my reasons extensively in previous posts.
Pardon my noobery but could you give me the cliff notes?
Also didn't you not want Akram in there based on his high tailender wicket percentage?
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah. Mind is a bit rusty but as I recall Akram had a higher than usual percentage of tail end wickets, and a relatively low wpm. I'm not his biggest fan, and definitely not the 3rd best bowler ever, but probably best suited for this role.

With regards to Imran, this team would be playing all over the world. If it was just playing in Pakistan where he was brilliant then sure, but they wouldn't be. Also his career batting average doesn't quite accurately project the batsman he was throughout his career.
But don't want to start up that argument again.
 

trundler

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Yeah. Mind is a bit rusty but as I recall Akram had a higher than usual percentage of tail end wickets, and a relatively low wpm. I'm not his biggest fan, and definitely not the 3rd best bowler ever, but probably best suited for this role.

With regards to Imran, this team would be playing all over the world. If it was just playing in Pakistan where he was brilliant then sure, but they wouldn't be. Also his career batting average doesn't quite accurately project the batsman he was throughout his career.
But don't want to start up that argument again.
Fair points and I do recall that discussion.. as someone else who went through all 560+ pages. I'll still have him to reverse it.. or maybe get Steyn.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Now that you mention it. Steyn replaces Lillee. Also thinking of replacing Proctor with Miller. In a 5 man attack with 2 spinners, he wouldn't need to bowl that much and he also solves the slip problem.

Umm

Spinning conditions XI

B. Richards.
L. Hutton
D. Bradman
G. Sobers
S. Tendulkar
K. Miller
A. Gilchrist
W. Akram
M. Marshall
S. Warne
M. Muralitharan

Miller can open with Maco and bowl in short bursts. This one better than with Kallis and McGrath?
 

trundler

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Now that you mention it. Steyn replaces Lillee. Also thinking of replacing Proctor with Miller. In a 5 man attack with 2 spinners, he wouldn't need to bowl that much and he also solves the slip problem.

Umm

Spinning conditions XI

B. Richards.
L. Hutton
D. Bradman
G. Sobers
S. Tendulkar
K. Miller
A. Gilchrist
W. Akram
M. Marshall
S. Warne
M. Muralitharan

Miller can open with Maco and bowl in short bursts. This one better than with Kallis and McGrath?
Yeah great stuff. By spinning conditions, if we refer to SC pitches only, Steyn should be there. Lillee did well enough on what he was presented with but Steyn was just phenomenal.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Doesn't necessarily mean SC pitches, but while Steyn is the better bowler. Doesn't that with Akram gone that the tail is lenghtened?
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
My standard (honouring mostly longer careers and best in varying conditions) team is exactly the same as yours Kyear:

Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Don Bradman
Sachin Tendulkar
Viv Richards
Gary Sobers
Adam Gilchrist +
Imran Khan
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Glenn McGrath

My preferred team (bit more X-factor) would be:

Barry Richards
Len Hutton
Don Bradman
Graeme Pollock
Viv Richards
Gary Sobers
Adam Gilchrist +
Wasim Akram/Mike Procter
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Curtly Ambrose
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Been a while Monk.

Yeah, the 1st one is hard to argue. Because I saw all of Ambrose career in real time, I sometimes under rate him for some reason, but he was amazing. Lillee agfo and Amby clinical examination wouldn't be the worse combination. DL and Maco in combo though could break teams.

What if we could make a composite team of the 4 most dominant in history.

Gordon Greenidge
Barry Richards
Don Bradman
Graeme Pollock
Viv Richards
Keith Miller
Adam Gilchrist
Mike Procter
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Glenn McGrath

Ricky Ponting
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Now that you mention it. Steyn replaces Lillee. Also thinking of replacing Proctor with Miller. In a 5 man attack with 2 spinners, he wouldn't need to bowl that much and he also solves the slip problem.

Umm

Spinning conditions XI

B. Richards.
L. Hutton
D. Bradman
G. Sobers
S. Tendulkar
K. Miller
A. Gilchrist
W. Akram
M. Marshall
S. Warne
M. Muralitharan

Miller can open with Maco and bowl in short bursts. This one better than with Kallis and McGrath?
If you're going into spining conditions you don't need 5 bowlers. Marshall and Steyn are enough and Warne and Murali will bowl the bulk of the overs. Tendulkar/Viv can roll his arm over if necessary.

I'd take a better batsman over Miller.

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist
Marshall
Warne
Murali
McGrath
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I'm so used to putting McGrath in my AT XI but I meant Steyn, not McGrath. On my phone so I don't want an edit to swallow my post.
 

Zinzan

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Now that you mention it. Steyn replaces Lillee. Also thinking of replacing Proctor with Miller. In a 5 man attack with 2 spinners, he wouldn't need to bowl that much and he also solves the slip problem.

Umm

Spinning conditions XI

B. Richards.
L. Hutton
D. Bradman
G. Sobers
S. Tendulkar
K. Miller
A. Gilchrist
W. Akram
M. Marshall
S. Warne
M. Muralitharan

Miller can open with Maco and bowl in short bursts. This one better than with Kallis and McGrath?
Your XI for a moist green seaming track?
 

Bolo

State Captain
Doesn't necessarily mean SC pitches, but while Steyn is the better bowler. Doesn't that with Akram gone that the tail is lenghtened?

No Hobbs is unusual. The logic works. Hes really borderline in terms of era. It's interesting that you have dropped him because he's an unknown quality and picked a guy who didn't really play tests- not exactly an open book. Barry is probably a safer bet to succeed under your selection criteria than Hobbs, just seems counterintuitive. Also, following this to it's logical conclusion I'd expect sunny before Barry. No complaints about the pick though, it's just interesting.

Not a big fan of Akram. Perfect fit for your 1st team though. Brings a lot to the table. 5 man spin is likely a mistake (see Stephen), but considering as presented, I don't like Akram. Just want the best swing bowler (conventional and reverse). So many different options off the deck that Akrams variety won't do much.

Steyn would be ideal. Conventional and reverse. As you say, batting is a factor. Akram had a couple of ridiculous knocks, but isn't someone I'd want to rely on.

Factoring in batting it's really hard to look past Imran. Perfect fit on bowling style, similar to Steyn. Very similar away record to Akram. I rate him ahead as a pure bowler. Fair enough if you don't. He's a long way ahead as a bat though. Much bigger gap between him and Akram than Akram and Steyn. If you don't think that much of Wasims bowling and are willing to sacrifice on bowling quality for a bit of extra batting, you must have a very low opinion of Imran not to apply the same logic. I'm indifferent about Imran making it in most team setups, but he's my first pick with this structure.

Also, if you are sacrificing a bit of bowling quality for batting in the spin team, it probably makes sense in the regular team. Drop Mcgrath for Hadlee. Same role as a bowler. Tiny quality difference in bowling. Enormous difference with the bat. I rate Mcgrath the 2nd best bowler ever, but he's completely unselectable to me. I'd be happy with a bunch of inferior bowlers getting in even if they can't bat for variety, but a channel bowler can't be anyone but Hadlee unless there is further info.
 

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