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The ``ASHES`` and the Pietersen diillema

Tom Halsey

International Coach
chaminda_00 said:
Take harmison out of the attack england have a **** poor attack as well, but we u didn't ask as to compared the england attack that included Hoggard, Flintoff, Jones, Anderson and Giles did u. Also Vaas is a better bowler then any of the english bowlers and Hearth is better then Giles and Jones and on par with Hoggard. Dilhara fully fit who know how good he could be. Add to that we have better depth in Zoysa, Maharoof, Malinga, Chandana and Suraj then the english.
That is a laughable quote.

We a) have other bowlers who are Test class other than Harmy
b) have better bowlers than Vaas
c) have better bowlers than Herath
d) have other bowlers other than 'No-Ball!' Dilhara
e) have better depth than what you mention.
 
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Tom Halsey

International Coach
SJS said:
Just to supplement the Murali vs two English bowlers argument.

Since 1st January 2003 the se are the wickets per match taken by these bowlers.

Harmison : 4.2

Hoggard : 3.9

Flintoff : 3.2

Murali 7.3

When you have a bowler like Murali he is worth two opposition bowlers. This argument is like saying that in the thirties Australian batting had no depth because take away Bradman and England were superior !!
Been there, done that.
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
SJS said:
Coming back to a comparison of India, whom you consider not worth comparing with England, and the English attack. Here is how they fare against the best in the world.

Since 1st jan. 2001. The following is the result of matches played by India and England against the undisputed world champs.

TEAM........PLAYED.......WON........LOST........DRAWN
India.................12..............4...............5..............3
England.............10.............2...............8..............NIL

While Indias win/loss ratio is 45/55, Englands is 20/80 !!! Number two side indeed !!

Does that say something about the Indian bowling. I guess not to someone who has made up his mind. India won due to their superior batting , is it ? Here are the bowling averages of the two teams against Aussies

TEAM........Bowling(Runs/wicket)
India.................39.1
England............47.8

Thus England concede 87 runs per 10 wickets more to the Aussies than India. When you add that to the batting averages, India 33.1 and England 27.8, you can see the problem. India has a net difference with Aussies of 6 runs per wicket and England have a whopping difference of 20 runs per wicket or 200 runs per ten wicket. Number two side indeed !!

Not only do the English bowlers conced more runs per wicket they are also hit harder and more often(surprising for a pace based attack) at 4.17 runs per over that Aussies score against the English attack as against 3.63 against India. Thus in a 100 overs, England would be hit for 54 more runs. Not a small difference , is it.

Come of it my friend. There is no way you are going to prove by stats or otherwise the superiority of this English side's bowling attack.

By the way, I have taken the stats for the last four years which includes the peaks of Harmison. Take his recent form and...Gawd help England :p
If it goes back to 2001, what's the relevance?
 

SpeedKing

U19 Vice-Captain
andyc said:
I reckon if he keeps it up, Lee will get a run in the Ashes. England will most definitely be very confident for this tour, and what better way than to destroy that by hurling 150-160 kph cricket balls at them? :D
As the Dale Steyn-Strauss exchanges showed, pace without incisive accuracy is fodder
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
I have to say, Lee bowled very well in the VB Series, but ODI success doesn't automatically translate into Test success.
 

SpeedKing

U19 Vice-Captain
chaminda_00 said:
Take harmison out of the attack england have a **** poor attack as well, but we u didn't ask as to compared the england attack that included Hoggard, Flintoff, Jones, Anderson and Giles did u. Also Vaas is a better bowler then any of the english bowlers and Hearth is better then Giles and Jones and on par with Hoggard. Dilhara fully fit who know how good he could be. Add to that we have better depth in Zoysa, Maharoof, Malinga, Chandana and Suraj then the english.
Dilhara fully fit how good can he be. I could say, James Anderson fully fit and firing how destructive can he be. Zoysa-Lewis, Malinga-Mahmood [pace for pace], Chandana-i will grant you coz we don't have many spinners and who the heck is Suraj
 

SpeedKing

U19 Vice-Captain
chaminda_00 said:
You may not rate Sami and Rana but they do provide suffient support to Ahktar and Kaneria. The short spells that Ahktar bowls is countered by the long spells and effective spells that Kaneira is capable of bowling.
giles is capable of bowling long and effective spells as well. sami might be as good as Flintoff but don't try and disgrace Hoggard by putting him on the same plane with Rana
 

SpeedKing

U19 Vice-Captain
Swervy said:
So it appears that everyone seems to think England success is down to the batting!!!!!!

I am obviously in the minority.

For me, to win ,what is it, 13 of the last 15 tests, you have to have a bowling attack of a lot of substance.....maybe I am wrong
Yes i fully agree with that. i think most of england's wins in their recent tests have been down to there bowlers. not trying to say that the batters haven't done anything but apart from Tres's 180, i struggle to find a batting perfomance that has lifted England from an average position to a match winning position. even in that match Hoggy had to come up with a 7-for to ensure victory
 

SpeedKing

U19 Vice-Captain
chaminda_00 said:
They haven't done anything of any note but they improved overall. That all im saying, i know they struggle without Murali but so would most sides without their top bowler.
Look at the way Harmison perfomed in SA. the Saffies do have a stronger line-up than the Windies.

but when Harmy underperfomed Hoggy, Freddie and Jones needed no second invitation
 

SpeedKing

U19 Vice-Captain
Swervy said:
I think Jones has a bit more ability than you make out to be honest.

take Harmo out of the equation.....that leave, in your eyes, two 'QUALITY' bowlers, a decent spinner..so thats three good bowlers. I think a lot of teams would like that to be honest.

I think you overestimate Harmisons importance to the England teams success
the thing is when England win without Harmy perfoming it is good and all but it all seems abit slow and drags on a tad. When they win with harmison perfoming, it is all at 90 mph.

It is true wot u said about people overestimating Harmy's importance to the england cause as the fore mentioned series showed
 

SpeedKing

U19 Vice-Captain
Arjun said:
Would you have Geraint Jones 'keeping? His batting seems average, while there's a leak behind the stumps. With Chris Read, you will have some safety there, but he's been found wanting with the bat, though Giles hasn't.
Finally somone on this thread realises Giles batting with me.i always felt there was some decent batting in him but was scared being ridculed on this thread. i remember that 30-odd that he scored against India in the Natwest Challenge. Class innings considering he was really England's last recognized batman and the collapse before him.

http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2004/OD_TOURNEYS/NWC/SCORECARDS/ENG_IND_NWC_ODI3_05SEP2004.html

Also he has produced some good scores in the Tests this pat year. However that thing about him not being found out, he seems to be unable to play on the legside. puzzling really how a someone who has played cricket for 20-odd years cannot clip a leg stump half-volley to midwicket for four. More than decent batsman on the offside.
 
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aussie

Hall of Fame Member
aussie

Yep thats true, he is extremely important to england with his batting ability at eight
 

SpeedKing

U19 Vice-Captain
The way he was dismissed in that innings i mentioned was pure comedy. Gutsy effort , there is me thinking giles is gonna take us home. Harbajan bowls one of the worst balls he will ever bowl [ a LEGSTUMP fulltoss] and Giles defends it in the air back to Mr. Singh.
 

SpeedKing

U19 Vice-Captain
SJS said:
I would have been happier if someone else opened with Trescothick and Strauss came in at number three. Unfortunately thats not feasible.
Maybe Strauss and Vaughan opening and Bell at 3. Then Thorpe, Pietersen, Flintoff stc.

I personally have nothing against Tres and i think he is vital to England but this line up looks safer. And Tres's spot in the squad for the next 3-4 years is as safe as Raul's starting spot in the real Madrid line-up.

The discovery of Pietersen has really been out of order on Bell as he [pietersen] has leapfrogged Bell in the pecking order. Key is gutsy and all but these two are much better than him and he should simply be forgotten about.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
SpeedKing said:
The discovery of Pietersen has really been out of order on Bell as he [pietersen] has leapfrogged Bell in the pecking order.
Actually, it's still just speculation that he has done as such.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
aussie said:
exactly tom, if it goes way back to 2001 why mention all that
As you may have read subsequently, I asked if you would like to suggest another period. I took another which had only 5 Ashes tests. The figures were still similar.

Surely you cant compare with ZERO tests ???
 

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