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Should the ICC drop the two bouncer law?

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
But that's not what I asked. I asked if it would be legal/ethical/allowed. Because if it's not legal, then obviously the batsman won't worry about you bowling there in the first place.
It's not possible to make a law preventing bowlers from bowling short at anyone - the only thing laws can make provision for is the Umpire to give a telling-off to a bowler who bowls short where he should not be.

You can never pass a law that means a batsman can rest safe in the knowledge that a short delivery is beyond reasonable doubt coming-up. Clever psychology from a fielding captain and bowler can always raise the suggestion in his mind.
 

chalky

International Debutant
I'd like to see the 2 bouncer rule axed as aggressive short pitched (ie aiming at throat) bowling is one of the finest sights in cricket especially if you have a batsman who will take on the hook and pull. But I would also like Umpires to be more strict on calling wides for balls above head height that the batsman cannot reach. This would stop the bouncer being used as just a run saving delivery.

Talking about fast bowling anyone remember Walsh & Bishop trying kill Robin Smith

YouTube - Bishop and Walsh target Robin Smith

That must have been fromn the 1990 tour (the 1st one Sky broadcasted). I watched all of that series but can't seem to remember this spell for some reason:unsure:
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Hypothetically, let's say there is an opener out and you know he has hurt himself fielding and is hurting at the ribs. Do you, as an opening bowler, target that area?
Such a good point.

If some of those claiming bouncing tailenders is wrong are consistent, they will find the WI's short pitched bowling to Ponting in the 2nd innings of the 3rd test as wrong and unsporting etc. etc. He barely could play a shot in that 2nd innings.

But the fact is, it wasn't wrong. Because Ponting chose to bat when he didn't need to.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
I'd take Ponting blindfolded with a broken leg to score more than Chris Martin, tbf.

I also want to emphasise that I'm not talking about tailenders per se too; Steyn played at #10 today and clearly has ability. Bouncing him wouldn't be unreasonable IMHO. I'm talking about your Martins, your Edwards & your Nehras; blokes who just can't defend themselves.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
I'd take Ponting blindfolded with a broken leg to score more than Chris Martin, tbf.

I also want to emphasise that I'm not talking about tailenders per se too; Steyn played at #10 today and clearly has ability. Bouncing him wouldn't be unreasonable IMHO. I'm talking about your Martins, your Edwards & your Nehras; blokes who just can't defend themselves.
Yeah I understand you're talking about absolutely woeful tailenders, but if Roach had hit Ponting again, he could have done some serious damage. Didn't seem to bother one person.

Hit Martin on the helmet or hit an already injured Ponting who could receive further tendon damage.... I know which one sounds worse.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Yeah I understand you're talking about absolutely woeful tailenders, but if Roach had hit Ponting again, he could have done some serious damage. Didn't seem to bother one person.

Hit Martin on the helmet or hit an already injured Ponting who could receive further tendon damage.... I know which one sounds worse.
Agreed, but it's also obvious which is the more likely too.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I also want to emphasise that I'm not talking about tailenders per se too; Steyn played at #10 today and clearly has ability. Bouncing him wouldn't be unreasonable IMHO. I'm talking about your Martins, your Edwards & your Nehras; blokes who just can't defend themselves.
If I was captaining Fidel Edwards I'd be delighted to see the oppo bump a few down at him
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Agreed, but it's also obvious which is the more likely too.
If we're talking about 'likely', I'll argue that its very unlikely that tailenders nowadays are going to be seriously injured after a couple of overs of short bowling.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
If we're talking about 'likely', I'll argue that its very unlikely that tailenders nowadays are going to be seriously injured after a couple of overs of short bowling.
Think that would become apparent only on a case by case basis, which is why I want the umpires to be able to step in if things get out of hand. As far as I recall, the oft cited example of Walsh's 11 consecutive bouncers at the myopic and limited but brave Devon Malcolm at Sabina in 94 didn't result in serious injury, but it was still unedifying to watch. It was nothing more than an attempt to physically cow a bloke who, however brave he might be, just wasn't good enough to counter it. I just don't think that has any part in sport.
 

Matt79

Global Moderator
This sport. Nothing wrong with that in contact sports.

I'm not a fan when its a real bunny batting, unless they've provoked it by given the guy bowling at them a few when the tables were reversed. Not a fan mainly because it's usually unnecessary in terms of getting their wicket. But if a number 11 started sticking around, playing a shot or two and became an obstacle - like McGrath did a couple of times (his partnership with Gillespie where he got a fifty, his century stand with Hussey) bounce him, even though he was a total bunny.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Talking about fast bowling anyone remember Walsh & Bishop trying kill Robin Smith

YouTube - Bishop and Walsh target Robin Smith

That must have been fromn the 1990 tour (the 1st one Sky broadcasted). I watched all of that series but can't seem to remember this spell for some reason:unsure:
Have seen that posted before and it's among the finest sights in the game - and it was indeed the 1990 tour. Even Smith, who was of course no mean hooker and puller, found Bishop simply too quick and too well-angled in that spell to take him on. But he gutsed it out nonetheless.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
This sport. Nothing wrong with that in contact sports.

I'm not a fan when its a real bunny batting, unless they've provoked it by given the guy bowling at them a few when the tables were reversed. Not a fan mainly because it's usually unnecessary in terms of getting their wicket. But if a number 11 started sticking around, playing a shot or two and became an obstacle - like McGrath did a couple of times (his partnership with Gillespie where he got a fifty, his century stand with Hussey) bounce him, even though he was a total bunny.
Exactly. Ntini and co. should have constantly bounced McGrath back in 2005 Boxing Day test to (a) put him on his back foot, (b) try and get his wicket, (c) keep Hussey off strike, and (d) rough him up a bit.

If they did that, even if it was simply two overs of straight short bowling, I'm sure Hussey wouldn't have tonned up and the partnership wouldn't have been 100+, which changed the face of the match.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
If I was captaining Fidel Edwards I'd be delighted to see the oppo bump a few down at him
Not if it struck him on the neck and put him out of the Test you wouldn't.

Sure it's rarely a good idea to rile-up a bowler who has the speed to give it back and there are several examples of bowlers ill-advisedly doing so down the years (I'm sure you're aware of the Larwood - Nobby Clark instance, for example). But if you actually manage to inflict an injury, then you've played a fair part in increasing your side's chances - by unfair means in my book.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
This sport. Nothing wrong with that in contact sports.
Depends on the method, tbh. All sorts of nefarious ways in rugby used to bully opponents (the eye gouge probably the worst) that I wouldn't condone.

Think the key is some kind of equality in the contest. If a couple of 18st 6' 6" locks have a square go, then fair enough, we all enjoy a good fight, but if one of them wails on the 5' 8" winger who weighs 13st dripping wet it looks like bullying. Same principle with short-pitched bowling; a quick steaming into a proper batsman and whistling a few past their ear 'oles is a thrilling spectacle; it's far less so when it's a rank bunny who's on the receiving end.
 

Matt79

Global Moderator
chalky said:
Talking about fast bowling anyone remember Walsh & Bishop trying kill Robin Smith

YouTube - Bishop and Walsh target Robin Smith

That must have been fromn the 1990 tour (the 1st one Sky broadcasted). I watched all of that series but can't seem to remember this spell for some reason:unsure:

**** - hadn't seen that before. Facing such bowling without helmets, or with helmets that helpfully didn't protect your face much have been such a test of skill and courage. Insane stuff. Remember Robin Smith as a tough as teak player, and he certainly looked every inch of that there.
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Such a good point.

If some of those claiming bouncing tailenders is wrong are consistent, they will find the WI's short pitched bowling to Ponting in the 2nd innings of the 3rd test as wrong and unsporting etc. etc. He barely could play a shot in that 2nd innings.

But the fact is, it wasn't wrong. Because Ponting chose to bat when he didn't need to.
It was stupid of Ponting to bat when he did because he was putting short-term over long-term; it was also rather questionable morally for West Indies' bowlers to bump him in my book. I actually said the same when Lou Vincent came out to bat under the floodlights at nine with a broken rib in 2001/02 when New Zealand were already leading by about 270 on a rapidly deteriorating deck and Hoggard and Flintoff bounced him - it was stupid for him to come out because he really didn't need to and every bit as poor form for England's bowlers to deliberately try to exacerbate an injury.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
How many bouncers at an absolute bunny are acceptable?
I don't think you can put a set number on it, which is why it should be at the umpires' discretion. Same principle with the boxing referee stepping in when a fighter is taking too much punishment. It'd be wrong to say "five/ten unaswered punches", but it should be obvious when a boxer is gone too.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
It was stupid of Ponting to bat when he did because he was putting short-term over long-term; it was also rather questionable morally for West Indies' bowlers to bump him in my book.
To me that it utterly crazy, but I've gone into as much detail as possible as to why I think there is nothing wrong with it and I won't be able to change your mind.

Ponting didn't have to bat, he was injured and many injured batsmen don't come back out. He chose to, and the best way to get him out was bowl at his neck and force him to fend off. It happened, it was terrific cricket.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Not if it struck him on the neck and put him out of the Test you wouldn't.

Sure it's rarely a good idea to rile-up a bowler who has the speed to give it back and there are several examples of bowlers ill-advisedly doing so down the years (I'm sure you're aware of the Larwood - Nobby Clark instance, for example). But if you actually manage to inflict an injury, then you've played a fair part in increasing your side's chances - by unfair means in my book.
Serious injuries are exceptionally rare - if they weren't the risks would quite properly be addressed by the lawmakers - on the other hand if you remove all risk the game becomes sterile - as for setting out to cause injury I'm not convinced, whatever Jeff Thomson said, or others have said about Sylvester Clarke/Charlie Griffith/Colin Croft etc that they or anybody else has actually been cricket's equivalent of Roy Keane
 

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