Sachin Tendulkar vs Jacques Kallis

[Fuller Pilch]

I don't think it could've been the best, because it's hard to argue that Grace's numbers would stack up well even allowing for time differences. But his overall influence on Test Cricket as a whole was what kept on ploughing him through the rounds.

I think we did this back in about 2008. A few new faces would have entered that 128 since then. I think you could potentially add Anderson, Broad, Smith, Ashwin, Cook, Steyn and possibly Lyon/Root/Kohli/Williamson too.

Sanga, Younis K, ABDV, Shakib, Jadeja, Watling, Cummins

 

[Molehill]

Sanga, Younis K, ABDV, Shakib, Jadeja, Watling, Cummins

The hardest part of the whole thing was narrowing down the 128 in the first place.

 

[subshakerz]

Show one post where I have said that Kallis is better than another player...

Just to be clear I have basically only argued against bull**** regarding Kallis to denigrate a great player because they did not like his style of play... I don't comment on which player I think is better because its such a subjective load of personal bias nonsense.

You defend Kallis like he is a family relative. I started to feel bad for you when I was critiquing him.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

And yet the numbers say otherwise.

To paraphrase our own @Prince EWS, "numbers" is not the same as "career Test average".

Averages are a useful stat but they don't give you the full picture on their own. To pick your example above, Grace's Test average won't tell you that he was one of the greatest players in the history of the game (which he certainly was). Raw averages will also tell you that Adam Voges and Eddie Paynter were two of the all time greats (they were not). You can get a better picture if you dig a bit further into players' numbers.

For Sachin, his career average undervalues him because he started as a teenager and played stupidly late. He was a ~60 average Test batsman for a longer time than most great batsmen's entire Test careers lasted. He also excelled in the bowling-friendly 90s when few batsmen were able to propser (cf Kallis who's run scoring spree came in the batting friendly era of the 2000s-early 2010s, where 50+ averaging batsmen were way more common).

That said I'm in the camp that thinks Kallis is often underrated here, I don't think it's at all crazy to rate him ahead of Sachin as an overall cricketer. ATG batting plus a decent 5th bowler plus great slip fielding is an amazing package.

 

[andruid]

Difficult question this. If the question was 'who is the better test batsman' Tendulkar wins handily, but the question is who is the better test cricketer. That throws a spanner in the works.

 

[Molehill]

That said I'm in the camp that thinks Kallis is often underrated here, I don't think it's at all crazy to rate him ahead of Sachin as an overall cricketer. ATG batting plus a decent 5th bowler plus great slip fielding is an amazing package.

I think he was more than a 5th bowler. He was extremely quick in his youth. It's also interesting that he played so much of his career with the likes of Donald, Pollock, Steyn and Ntini, it's not like they left a load of wickets to share around. That he got to close on 300 is remarkable.

I also wonder what his batting average might've been had he not also bowled?

 

[StephenZA]

You defend Kallis like he is a family relative. I started to feel bad for you when I was critiquing him.

I defend him because he is a great player that people like yourself talk bull**** about... and yes as a SA supporter I like to defend the players that I have watched throughout their career. Unlike yourself who makes things up about players you know obviously little about but think your own opinion is greater than all others. And I certainly don't need for people like you to feel sorry for me.

 

[Raz0r6ack]

Tendulkar is a better bat and to me a marginally better cricketer since I don't rate Kallis in the top 20 bats of all-time so the gulf between them in that category is large enough not to be filled by his bowling.

Tendulkar might be a marginally better batsman then Kallis but Kallis is definitely a better cricketer. You're not getting enough extra output from Tendulkar with the bat to offset Kallis' bowling.

 

[Coronis]

I voted Kallis, but really for me I find it hard to compare different disciplines. e.g Who was a better cricketer; a batsman (Tendulkar), a bowler (Marshall), or an allrounder (Kallis) is just an annoying and kinda pointless exercise for me.

Its annoying enough comparing batting AR’s vs bowling AR’s.

 

[Godard]

And yet the numbers say otherwise. Kallis even averaged 6 more in India than Tendulkar did. Throw in over 250 more wickets and it's a very straightforward decision (for those not blinkered anyway).

You can't compare the home average of a player with the away average of a visiting players, because the former would have played a whole variety of attacks on those wickets in addition to a lot more matches. In addition to that, Tendulkar has a more rounded record, as Kallis's struggles in Eng and Sl are very pronounced. Tendulkar averaged 60 for around 18 years(Kallis did so for 14 years), and if you consider number of matches and years both, that is perhaps the most longevity displayed by a batter. Plus, Tendulkar was the best bat of the 90s, a very hard era to bat, compared to the 2000s when Kallis excelled. Kallis also had a problem with his defensive mindset(which he tried to change towards the end) did cost SA some games.

 

[shortpitched713]

Kallis is somewhat similar to Pollock to me in that their secondary disciplines are slightly overrated and I wouldn't put either in the top ten cricketers ever.

Think they're underrated, because even in an ATG team against other ATG competition you're expecting something, from them with their secondary discipline, as opposed to nothing. If you look at a really, really good part timer like Tendulkar, you might never throw him the ball in an important match, and if you did, you certainly wouldn't expect anything to come from it. With Kallis, you'd want him to bowl at some point, given the magnitude of the match, and you'd expect something to come of that.

 

[subshakerz]

Think they're underrated, because even in an ATG team against other ATG competition you're expecting something, from them with their secondary discipline, as opposed to nothing. If you look at a really, really good part timer like Tendulkar, you might never throw him the ball in an important match, and if you did, you certainly wouldn't expect anything to come from it. With Kallis, you'd want him to bowl at some point, given the magnitude of the match, and you'd expect something to come of that.

Conventional wisdom is that the batting difference between someone like Tendulkar and Kallis is relatively small. I dunno tho, I think Tendulkar is going to set up more matches with the bat then Kallis' support bowling will change match results.

Kallis' bowling is the equivalent of a no.7/8 bat. It only really comes into play once the first four bowlers haven't delivered.

Whereas a relatively small difference between Tendulkar and Kallis is magnified given that it is a key batting position at no.4.

 

[CodeOfWisden]

Again with the Sachin worship.

Kallis is basically Sanga + Zaheer, why would someone not take him over Tendu.

 

[Sunil1z]

Again with the Sachin worship.

Kallis is basically Sanga + Zaheer, why would someone not take him over Tendu.

If Kallis is as good as Zaheer because of his bowling average then Rahul Dravid is a better batsman than Viv Richards.

 

[Himannv]

At his peak, Tendulkar was a better bowler with his leggies ripping in off the rough. He's also a much better batsman so this is no contest. Kallis isn't even good at tying his boots with the laces or something to that effect.

However, mangoes are better than both.

 

[anil1405]

Off topic: A dream contest for me right now is a tag team match between Himannv and Sangakkara vs Subz and Kallis.

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

I would say judging an ability that a cricketer doesnt do primarily is flawed , I can say Kallis is better than Tendulkar in bowling , but if I don't need Tendulkar to bowl in a cricket team why would I judge him on that discipline?

Is Andrew Flintoff a better cricketer than Glenn McGrath because he bats and fields better ? , I reckon 11 Flintoffs will beat 11 Glenn McGrath's every time but nobody picks a team like that in reality .

 

[Archer6K]

Again with the Sachin worship.

Kallis is basically Sanga + Zaheer, why would someone not take him over Tendu.

Kallis' bowling isn't close to Zaheer Khan's bowling

 

[Slifer]

Kallis. Slightly worse as a pure batsman but a much much better bowler and fielder. This isn't a serious contest.

 

[BazBall21]

Kallis was a batsman who bowled rather than all-rounder, and the Zaheer Khan comparison is a conversation killer.