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S Africa calls for its players to stay

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
It's club cricket, there should be no quotas whatsoever.
I don`t totally agree with that because club cricket tends to be the greatest stumbling block for players from disadvantaged areas and backgrounds.... but this debate has been simplified way to much. I agree that sport quotas are there to pander to the public and serve little practical good.
-------
(Long ramble to follow...)
However, I agree with the principle of quotas because there is to much historic cultural exclusion in SA society for there not to be quotas. An example in the first world would be how female employers are sometimes excluded due to not being a part of the boys club (particularly historically), hence the spotlight on this sort of discrimination. But like anything if not implemented correctly by everybody especially government people just take advantage of the situation.

My concern and problems with quotas are 2 fold. Firstly racial discrimination is written into our constitution helping the 80%, majority, and discriminating against 10%; already there is a larger rich black elite population in SA than white but the discrimination is along lines of colour rather than economic. But a lot of the fault with current quotas lies with big business; BEE (black empowerment or some variation) has been around for 20+ years now and like always rather than people following the principal of what was trying to be achieved they gave lip service; Paying black rich powerful business men, and the like, to sit on boards and be CEO`s doing nothing so that they could say they were BEE compliant, without actually achieving anything regarding proper redistribution of wealth and helping previously disadvantaged up the ladder. Forced quotas both at business and sport level are an attempt to overcome this sort of problem... but is having a huge negative impact on the SA society.

Anecdotally, I have an acquaintance who works in a large dentist office, the only black person who works in the office is the cleaner, everybody else is white, he is very happy about this. There are well qualified black dentists in SA available, but because there is no direct influence from government to effect this sort of business, it stays within the family and very protected regardless (if understandably) and this is a problem. At the same time I have one of my best friends who is leaving for Australia, he has a PhD in computing science/mathematics and has been lecturing at the university for 8 years. The university has told him he will not be moved to a senior lecture role because he is not black even though there are 2 current vacant positions. The best he can hope for is maybe in 5 to 7 years time. Neither of these scenarios are good for the future of SA. Anybody who is against quotas would use my friend leaving as an example of why they are bad... anybody for quotas would use the dentists office as an example of why they are needed. Neither are right or wrong they only looking at part of the issue.

In effect the problem is not the quotas themselves it is not that there is a dividing lines economic or cultural etc it is the fact that very few people in SA (or the rest of the world) don`t complain when something effects them negatively, even if for larger benefit, and will do what ever they can to manipulate the system for themselves white or black all the way from government to business, creating corruption, nepotism and incompetence. The only way SA will overcome these issues is by growing educationally and economically, and the current government incompetence and corruption does not allow it.

But none of this discussion makes any difference, quotas will remain and may or may not do some good in the long run; hopefully it does more good than bad and hopefully they will no longer be required sooner rather than later. But all we can do is cross fingers and hope.
 
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Marius

International Debutant
I don`t totally agree with that because club cricket tends to be the greatest stumbling block for players from disadvantaged areas and backgrounds.... but this debate has been simplified way to much. I agree that sport quotas are there to pander to the public and serve little practical good.
-------
(Long ramble to follow...)
However, I agree with the principle of quotas because there is to much historic cultural exclusion in SA society for there not to be quotas. An example in the first world would be how female employers are sometimes excluded due to not being a part of the boys club (particularly historically), hence the spotlight on this sort of discrimination. But like anything if not implemented correctly by everybody especially government people just take advantage of the situation.

My concern and problems with quotas are 2 fold. Firstly racial discrimination is written into our constitution helping the 80%, majority, and discriminating against 10%; already there is a larger rich black elite population in SA than white but the discrimination is along lines of colour rather than economic. But a lot of the fault with current quotas lies with big business; BEE (black empowerment or some variation) has been around for 20+ years now and like always rather than people following the principal of what was trying to be achieved they gave lip service; Paying black rich powerful business men, and the like, to sit on boards and be CEO`s doing nothing so that they could say they were BEE compliant, without actually achieving anything regarding proper redistribution of wealth and helping previously disadvantaged up the ladder. Forced quotas both at business and sport level are an attempt to overcome this sort of problem... but is having a huge negative impact on the SA society.

Anecdotally, I have an acquaintance who works in a large dentist office, the only black person who works in the office is the cleaner, everybody else is white, he is very happy about this. There are well qualified black dentists in SA available, but because there is no direct influence from government to effect this sort of business, it stays within the family and very protected regardless (if understandably) and this is a problem. At the same time I have one of my best friends who is leaving for Australia, he has a PhD in computing science/mathematics and has been lecturing at the university for 8 years. The university has told him he will not be moved to a senior lecture role because he is not black even though there are 2 current vacant positions. The best he can hope for is maybe in 5 to 7 years time. Neither of these scenarios are good for the future of SA. Anybody who is against quotas would use my friend leaving as an example of why they are bad... anybody for quotas would use the dentists office as an example of why they are needed. Neither are right or wrong they only looking at part of the issue.

In effect the problem is not the quotas themselves it is not that there is a dividing lines economic or cultural etc it is the fact that very few people in SA (or the rest of the world) don`t complain when something effects them negatively, even if for larger benefit, and will do what ever they can to manipulate the system for themselves white or black all the way from government to business, creating corruption, nepotism and incompetence. The only way SA will overcome these issues is by growing educationally and economically, and the current government incompetence and corruption does not allow it.

But none of this discussion makes any difference, quotas will remain and may or may not do some good in the long run; hopefully it does more good than bad and hopefully they will no longer be required sooner rather than later. But all we can do is cross fingers and hope.
Why should this dentist hire black dentists? He shouldn't be under any obligation to? I think a far better solution would be for him to pay a skills levy to pay for a disadvantaged kid to go study dentistry at university.

And how would hiring a black dentist make any difference to an impoverished person? That is the problem with quotas, including the ones in the cricket side. Quotas do not make one iota of difference to the young kid living in a shack in Diepsloot. How does the fact that three black dudes have to be in each franchise side give him the opportunity to play cricket?
 

Marius

International Debutant
I don`t totally agree with that because club cricket tends to be the greatest stumbling block for players from disadvantaged areas and backgrounds.... but this debate has been simplified way to much. I agree that sport quotas are there to pander to the public and serve little practical good.
-------
I'm not sure I agree that cricket clubs themselves are stumbling blocks to transformation. In the league I play in, at least, teams are far more mixed than they were ten years ago, for example.

Sure, some clubs will have racist tools, but any club with forward looking people will know that they have to help make black players etc. feel included.
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
Why should this dentist hire black dentists? He shouldn't be under any obligation to? I think a far better solution would be for him to pay a skills levy to pay for a disadvantaged kid to go study dentistry at university.

And how would hiring a black dentist make any difference to an impoverished person? That is the problem with quotas, including the ones in the cricket side. Quotas do not make one iota of difference to the young kid living in a shack in Diepsloot. How does the fact that three black dudes have to be in each franchise side give him the opportunity to play cricket?
The purpose of something like quota is historic redistribution of wealth, if you choose a "white" dentist to employ that comes from a middle class family the money stays with that group of people, by forcing him to employ a "black" man who came from a disadvantaged background his pay cheque goes back into his family which uplifts the previously disadvantage... that is the principle. Even hiring somebody of colour as a secretary versus a cleaner etc creates the same redistribution... the problem is when all that happens is that the money goes from one middle or upper class person to another the people in the townships stay in the townships... white or black (there is an increasing large white population within the townships). Hence my comment that this should be less about colour and more about economic redistribution. If everybody was willing to pay extra levies to help uplift the poor etc then that would be great, but most people would complain about extra levies... economically the country needs to redistribute money better however it very importantly needs to go hand in hand with an increasing economy and investment. You can not take a slice of the pie from one group and just give to the other you need to create a bigger pie, making sure that the people with the smallest piece gets a larger piece and the people with the biggest piece gets the least increase..... but this is going into economics outside my forte. Hence the real failure of the SA government....
 

Marius

International Debutant
The purpose of something like quota is historic redistribution of wealth, if you choose a "white" dentist to employ that comes from a middle class family the money stays with that group of people, by forcing him to employ a "black" man who came from a disadvantaged background his pay cheque goes back into his family which uplifts the previously disadvantage... that is the principle. Even hiring somebody of colour as a secretary versus a cleaner etc creates the same redistribution... the problem is when all that happens is that the money goes from one middle or upper class person to another the people in the townships stay in the townships... white or black (there is an increasing large white population within the townships). Hence my comment that this should be less about colour and more about economic redistribution. If everybody was willing to pay extra levies to help uplift the poor etc then that would be great, but most people would complain about extra levies... economically the country needs to redistribute money better however it very importantly needs to go hand in hand with an increasing economy and investment. You can not take a slice of the pie from one group and just give to the other you need to create a bigger pie, making sure that the people with the smallest piece gets a larger piece and the people with the biggest piece gets the least increase..... but this is going into economics outside my forte. Hence the real failure of the SA government....
I'm not sure about the growing number of white people in the townships - Africa Check did work on it and found that there was very little evidence that white people were living as squatters or in shacks as claimed by the likes of Steve Hofmeyr.

South Africa is actually already pretty good at redistributing stuff, the World Bank has praised us for our redistributive system.

But I do think we're starting to argue in circles here.
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
I'm not sure I agree that cricket clubs themselves are stumbling blocks to transformation. In the league I play in, at least, teams are far more mixed than they were ten years ago, for example.

Sure, some clubs will have racist tools, but any club with forward looking people will know that they have to help make black players etc. feel included.
But that's it, forward thinking clubs have no real problems and will probably cope with the transformation target in the long run making it not necessary... those ones that can`t generally have to change or disappear. But it is not nice to be discriminated against whoever you are, white or black, hence the fight against quota even when the target is being met.... but I really don`t think that people change without some pressure forcing them to change. I don`t like quota I wish we did not have to have it, but I do recognized it as a tool when you used correctly... but like most things it is normally just used badly.
 
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SeamUp

International Coach
Daryn Smit signs 2 year-deal for Derbyshire

Director of Cricket, Kim Barnett, says he’s delighted to secure a multi-talented player like batsman Daryn Smit for the 2017 season.

Smit, who qualifies as a non-overseas player, will be available for all three forms this summer, subject to successful completion of registration.

The batsman, who has represented South Africa A and was selected for the Proteas’ 2009 T20 World Cup initial squad, has appeared in 125 first-class matches scoring 5,711 runs at an average of 37, including nine hundreds.

He has also featured in 107 List A games hitting 1,870 runs and 80 Twenty20 fixtures scoring 701 runs with an impressive strike rate of 121.

Barnett said: “Daryn is a multi-talented player. He can keep, bowls spin, fields brilliantly and is a very good batsman. He’s got a good first-class and one-day record, and we’re delighted to get Daryn for all forms of cricket.”
 

SeamUp

International Coach
UPDATED LIST

Abbott/Rossouw not even bothering playing SA domestic. Sort of like Rudolph, Smit, McLaren just retire from it.

SA/Zim connected players in County cricket

SOMERSET : Dean Elgar, Johann Myburgh , Roelof Vd Merwe, Tim Groenewald (Ed Byrom - Zimbabwe)
GLOUCS : Gareth Roderick, Graeme Van Buuren
GLAMORGAN : Jacques Rudolph, Colin Ingram, Chris Cooke, Craig Meschede, Marchant de Lange
HAMPS : Rilee Rossouw, Kyle Abbott, Gareth Berg, Bradley Wheal (Sean Ervine - Zimbabwe)
KENT : Sean Dickson
SUSSEX : Stiaan Van Zyl, Vernon Philander, David Wiese
SURREY : Kevin Pietersen, Jason Roy, Jade Dernbach, Stuart Meaker, Mathew Pillans, Tom Curran, Conor McKerr (Sam Curran - Zimbabwe)
MIDDLESEX : Nick Compton, Dawid Malan, James Fuller (Ryan Higgins - Zimbabwe)
ESSEX : Ryan ten Doeschate, Simon Harmer, Neil Wagner

WORCS :
DERBYS : Daryn Smit, Wayne Madsen, Imran Tahir, Hardus Viljoen
LEICS : Colin Ackermann, Cameron Delport, Niel Dexter, Dieter Klein
NORTHANTS : Richard Levi, Rory Kleinveldt, Chad Barrett
NOTTS : Michael Lumb, Rikki Wessels (Brendan Taylor : Zimbabwe)
DURHAM : Stephen Cook, Michael Richardson, Keaton Jennings, Brydon Carse
LANCS : Dane Vilas, Ryan McLaren (Kyle Jarvis : Zimbabwe)
YORKS : (Gary Ballance : Zimbabwe)
WARKS : Jonathan Trott


Also coaching : Mark Davis (Sussex) & Pierre De Bruyn (Leics) + potenitally Allan Donald (Kent)
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
Losing all our experienced/senior players... going to be more important than ever to keep guys like McKenzie, Boucher at coaching and mentoring level. Foolish we lost Klusener, Donald even Ntini.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Losing all our experienced/senior players... going to be more important than ever to keep guys like McKenzie, Boucher at coaching and mentoring level. Foolish we lost Klusener, Donald even Ntini.
And supposedly CSA didn't want Boucher to get the Titans gig.

But also pleased for Nicky Boje at Knights winning the Sunfoil Series in his first full season.

All I know is, Weber van Wyk must be sitting at home one happy bloke, brokering these County deals. Like a football agent.
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
All I know is, Weber van Wyk must be sitting at home one happy bloke, brokering these County deals. Like a football agent.
He must be thanking his luck stars and having a Bells every time he sees the Brexit vote..... (obviously quotas helping as well).

I will say I`m happy for Daryn though, he gets to make a final swang song and make some money late in his career. Good for him.
 

Marius

International Debutant
And supposedly CSA didn't want Boucher to get the Titans gig.

But also pleased for Nicky Boje at Knights winning the Sunfoil Series in his first full season.

All I know is, Weber van Wyk must be sitting at home one happy bloke, brokering these County deals. Like a football agent.
Why? Politics?

Wouldn't surprise me. I remember when he was appointed there were some rumblings that he was unqualified and only got the gig cause he was white (blah, blah, yawn).
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Why? Politics?

Wouldn't surprise me. I remember when he was appointed there were some rumblings that he was unqualified and only got the gig cause he was white (blah, blah, yawn).
Not sure on full reasoning but I imagine Smith, Kallis and Boucher were very much pro the best players playing to be the best they can be.

Saw KP, Jakes, Paul Harris and the likes all pipe up about it when Titans won the T20.
 

91Jmay

International Coach
UPDATED LIST

Abbott/Rossouw not even bothering playing SA domestic. Sort of like Rudolph, Smit, McLaren just retire from it.

SA/Zim connected players in County cricket

SOMERSET : Dean Elgar, Johann Myburgh , Roelof Vd Merwe, Tim Groenewald (Ed Byrom - Zimbabwe)
GLOUCS : Gareth Roderick, Graeme Van Buuren
GLAMORGAN : Jacques Rudolph, Colin Ingram, Chris Cooke, Craig Meschede, Marchant de Lange
HAMPS : Rilee Rossouw, Kyle Abbott, Gareth Berg, Bradley Wheal (Sean Ervine - Zimbabwe)
KENT : Sean Dickson
SUSSEX : Stiaan Van Zyl, Vernon Philander, David Wiese
SURREY : Kevin Pietersen, Jason Roy, Jade Dernbach, Stuart Meaker, Mathew Pillans, Tom Curran, Conor McKerr (Sam Curran - Zimbabwe)
MIDDLESEX : Nick Compton, Dawid Malan, James Fuller (Ryan Higgins - Zimbabwe)
ESSEX : Ryan ten Doeschate, Simon Harmer, Neil Wagner

WORCS :
DERBYS : Daryn Smit, Wayne Madsen, Imran Tahir, Hardus Viljoen
LEICS : Colin Ackermann, Cameron Delport, Niel Dexter, Dieter Klein
NORTHANTS : Richard Levi, Rory Kleinveldt, Chad Barrett
NOTTS : Michael Lumb, Rikki Wessels (Brendan Taylor : Zimbabwe)
DURHAM : Stephen Cook, Michael Richardson, Keaton Jennings, Brydon Carse
LANCS : Dane Vilas, Ryan McLaren (Kyle Jarvis : Zimbabwe)
YORKS : (Gary Ballance : Zimbabwe)
WARKS : Jonathan Trott


Also coaching : Mark Davis (Sussex) & Pierre De Bruyn (Leics) + potenitally Allan Donald (Kent)
Stretching the facts on Roy and Curran. Jason Roy moved over before he was a teenager, Sam Curran was born in England,
 

Marius

International Debutant
Stretching the facts on Roy and Curran. Jason Roy moved over before he was a teenager, Sam Curran was born in England,
He said connected players.

Being born in SA is surely a connection, and Curran's old man played for Zimbabwe, so I would also argue that that is a link.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
The latest to join Kolpak : https://www.sport24.co.za/Cricket/proteas-batsman-signs-kolpak-deal-with-kent-20180307

Cobras : Richard Levi (Northants) & Stiaan van Zyl (Sussex)
Warriors : Colin Ackermann (Leics) , Colin Ingram (Glamorgan) , Simon Harmer (Essex)
Dolphins : Dane Vilas (Lancs), Kyle Abbott* (Hampshire)
Knights : Rilee Rossouw* (Hamps) Marchant de Lange (Glamorgan)
Lions : Hardus Viljoen (Derbys)
Titans : Heino Kuhn (Kent), David Wiese (Sussex)

* Rossouw and Abbott don't even play domestically in SA anymore.
 

brockley

International Captain
A lot depends if the new T20 comp goes ahead,if the rest are to stay.
Decision is made in March?
If it falls through expect many more will jump ship.
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
A lot depends if the new T20 comp goes ahead,if the rest are to stay.
Decision is made in March?
If it falls through expect many more will jump ship.
Not so sure about that, their is a limit to kolpak deals and the best have available have largely been snapped up.... this is not just about money. Abbott for example was earning about the same on his international contract as he gets for kolpak, but felt he was better off playing and living in Eng.

The T20 league is actually more about compensating for the FC structure with regards to other T20 leagues etc
 
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