Robert Key to replace Butcher?

[Swervy]

Kirtley couldn't get a bowl in a chinese resturant these days with England.

Anderson doesn't need more bowling - infact, over bowling is what cooked him in the first place and made him lose his sharp edge. Slowly but surely, that edge is coming back as the selection panel is taking good care of his body and workload.

It's Jones who needs overs.

i think England need to find a happy medium ith Anderson..he was obviously over worked last year..but to only bowl 140 overs in a season this year is not enough. He needs to bowl more in confidence building environments (ie County Cricket)

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Kabir Ali out for 3 weeks with a Stomach muscle injury

 

[gio]

"Not much there after Harmison and Hoggard"

I can't except this. Simon Jones has shown potential against every test nation, from Australia through to the Windies. He just needs to get some overs and get fit. I'm sure he will prove to be a sub 30 bowler. And you can't just right Kabir Ali off after one test and an injury raveged season. He took 5 wickets in his debut test, and has a good work ethic. whilst James Anderson has ran through many lineups in ODIs, but has struggled a bit in test matches. Once he gets the consistency of line and length, like Harmison before him, he will prove to be a good, if not better, international bowler.

 

[marc71178]

Kabir Ali out for 3 weeks with a Stomach muscle injury

Does that put him out of the ICC?

Who to replace him?

 

[Richard]

Anderson doesn't need more bowling - infact, over bowling is what cooked him in the first place and made him lose his sharp edge. Slowly but surely, that edge is coming back as the selection panel is taking good care of his body and workload.

It's Jones who needs overs.

Over-bowling?
Anderson bowled 333 overs last summer. That's not even a patch on what bowlers routinely managed even 5 years ago, let alone 40.
Anderson is certainly not regaining any edge (I never really thought he had one ITFP), his ODI average is going up from last winter onwards, and on the rare occasion he plays a Test he bowls absolute trash.
I really fail to believe people can think he's burned-out when the fact is he's never been burned-in.
Maybe he might have mental burn-out, but physical burn-out is totally unrealistic. I don't think so, though, because as I say, he's never looked particularly good to me so he can't have got worse, just been played better.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Does that put him out of the ICC?

Who to replace him?

Well its 2-3 weeks, so he should be OK for the ICC but will miss the Natwest Challenge. So i doubt they'll bother with a replacement.

 

[wpdavid]

Regarding Butcher, his golden period began with a series of the highest class against an unrelenting attack in a series just before the proliferation of flat tracks began. His next two successful series were both against not-especially-inspiring bowling, sandwiching a failure in a series of very seam-friendly pitches, his next success after that against the substandard Zimbabweans, but his next two good matches were masterpieces on very, very difficult pitches in which he scored a century and twin 50s. Then he did reasonably on a very tricky Galle pitch, failed on an equally tricky Kandy one and wasted a chance on an SSC belter. In West Indies he did pretty well in fairly trying conditions. Against New Zealand he wasted a chance to cash-in on toothless bowling.
So I think he's actually done pretty well - if he'd had the pitches Australia have had I reckon his average from 2001 onwards would be in the 50s.

Bottom line is if I had to pick either Butcher or Key to bat for my life in SA, I'd probably pick Butcher. However, I do think you're being a bit generous to him. In some ways, he's the opposite of Trescothick, who tends to contribute very little in tough situations but cashes in when the odds are in his favour. Butcher, OTOH, seems to switch off when the going is easy but has produced a number of really gutsy knocks - I'm thinking of Tests 1 & 2 in the WI and Trent Bridge & Leeds last year. But he does tend to give it away too often, and, as I said before, he only has himself to blame that he's not fireproof.

It's a nice situation to have though. I thought Key batted well on Monday, if only because he seemed to have cut out the shots that were getting him out in previous innings this summer, and I'm all for players who are prepared to learn from their mistakes. The way some people write him off because of how he played in Aus 2 years ago is nonsense. It seems pretty clear that his time in Aus last winter has helped his game. Even if this is only against WI, his runs in the CC before he was called up were well beyond what he had ever achieved previously and if he's providing a bit of competition and cover at the top of the order, then that can only be a good thing.

 

[marc71178]

Well its 2-3 weeks, so he should be OK for the ICC but will miss the Natwest Challenge. So i doubt they'll bother with a replacement.

Which would indicate they don't intend to play him in the ICC then.

Wouldn't take an injured player without match practise into a major tournament unless he's a must-pick player.

 

[Craig]

Bottom line is if I had to pick either Butcher or Key to bat for my life in SA, I'd probably pick Butcher. However, I do think you're being a bit generous to him. In some ways, he's the opposite of Trescothick, who tends to contribute very little in tough situations but cashes in when the odds are in his favour. Butcher, OTOH, seems to switch off when the going is easy but has produced a number of really gutsy knocks - I'm thinking of Tests 1 & 2 in the WI and Trent Bridge & Leeds last year. But he does tend to give it away too often, and, as I said before, he only has himself to blame that he's not fireproof.

It's a nice situation to have though. I thought Key batted well on Monday, if only because he seemed to have cut out the shots that were getting him out in previous innings this summer, and I'm all for players who are prepared to learn from their mistakes. The way some people write him off because of how he played in Aus 2 years ago is nonsense. It seems pretty clear that his time in Aus last winter has helped his game. Even if this is only against WI, his runs in the CC before he was called up were well beyond what he had ever achieved previously and if he's providing a bit of competition and cover at the top of the order, then that can only be a good thing.

I think the last Ashes showed us Key could play if he can get rid of the silly shots - he certainly demonstrated that against Australia A at Hobart when England had to follow on (I still remember the headline on the back page of the Sunday Mail - a Brisbane paper), and he showed us he isn't afraid of going down the wicket and hitting Warne back over his head which takes guts to do IMO.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

I think the last Ashes showed us Key could play if he can get rid of the silly shots - he certainly demonstrated that against Australia A at Hobart when England had to follow on (I still remember the headline on the back page of the Sunday Mail - a Brisbane paper), and he showed us he isn't afraid of going down the wicket and hitting Warne back over his head which takes guts to do IMO.

What was the headline?

 

[Craig]

"Hopeless".

 

[Son Of Coco]

The way I understood it Healey's retirement was clearly imminent and he was pensioned-off without a fairwell on his home ground, for the IMO logical reason of starting a summer with the new man in place.
Slater, meanwhile, never had any quibbles to make about his place and AFAIK never made any. Throughout the entire tour of 2001 he looked wholly unconvincing, after a less-than-inspiring India series. 1 half-century in 12 dismissals is not good enough, and for a 31-year-old Australian batsman it can signal the end of your career. Very sadly indeed, Slater's whole professional career has been brought prematurely to a halt too.
Regarding Butcher, his golden period began with a series of the highest class against an unrelenting attack in a series just before the proliferation of flat tracks began. His next two successful series were both against not-especially-inspiring bowling, sandwiching a failure in a series of very seam-friendly pitches, his next success after that against the substandard Zimbabweans, but his next two good matches were masterpieces on very, very difficult pitches in which he scored a century and twin 50s. Then he did reasonably on a very tricky Galle pitch, failed on an equally tricky Kandy one and wasted a chance on an SSC belter. In West Indies he did pretty well in fairly trying conditions. Against New Zealand he wasted a chance to cash-in on toothless bowling.
So I think he's actually done pretty well - if he'd had the pitches Australia have had I reckon his average from 2001 onwards would be in the 50s.

Do they prepare different pitches for the Australian team?

 

[Richard]

Bottom line is if I had to pick either Butcher or Key to bat for my life in SA, I'd probably pick Butcher. However, I do think you're being a bit generous to him. In some ways, he's the opposite of Trescothick, who tends to contribute very little in tough situations but cashes in when the odds are in his favour. Butcher, OTOH, seems to switch off when the going is easy but has produced a number of really gutsy knocks - I'm thinking of Tests 1 & 2 in the WI and Trent Bridge & Leeds last year. But he does tend to give it away too often, and, as I said before, he only has himself to blame that he's not fireproof.

Why?
He's failed in three series where he should have cashed-in - The Ashes 2002\03 (whether the team was called "Australia" or not there were still plenty of runs to be had, especially once Warne got injured), the India series that preceded it, and the recent New Zealand series.
I really don't blame him overtly for his failures in New Zealand (2001\02) and Sri Lanka (2003\04), because hardly anyone achieved much in very bowler-friendly conditions at the opposite ends of the spectrum. And equally he's cashed-in big-time against Sri Lanka (2002) and Zimbabwe (2003) and cashed-in pretty well against India (2001\02). He's also conquered tricky batting circumstances aplenty (Australia 2001, South Africa 2003 and West Indies 2003\04).
I seriously think he is as good a player as England could wish for. Averaging 43 in these three years is something not many have managed to do. Vaughan had one golden, very lucky, year; Trescothick had a hell of a lot of luck in 2000, 2001 and 2002 and otherwise has done sod-all in the last 2 years before this summer; and Thorpe (whose average I'm not actually sure of) is about as good as him.

It's a nice situation to have though. I thought Key batted well on Monday, if only because he seemed to have cut out the shots that were getting him out in previous innings this summer, and I'm all for players who are prepared to learn from their mistakes. The way some people write him off because of how he played in Aus 2 years ago is nonsense. It seems pretty clear that his time in Aus last winter has helped his game. Even if this is only against WI, his runs in the CC before he was called up were well beyond what he had ever achieved previously and if he's providing a bit of competition and cover at the top of the order, then that can only be a good thing.

I'd agree with most of this, but as I say earlier, I'm really not sure whether not having a clue as to your best-XI, with vested-interests all around, is a good thing.
I mean, take this for another hypothesis:
Butcher and Key both make plenty of runs in the warm-up games. Butcher is rightly afforded his place in The First Test, but the wicket is dicey, Pollock, Ntini and Nel are almost unplayable and Butcher scores 3 and 6. Key then comes in for the Second Test, on a much better batting track, and scores 80. He is sure of his place for the next 2 Tests, both played on tracks which offer a little to the seamers while not being unplayable, and Key twice makes very costly failures. This costs the series. Butcher gets his place back but by then the damage is done.
Of course we don't know at all that something like this is going to happen, it's total guesswork, but knowing English cricket it's exactly the sort of thing that you can bet your life has a chance of happening - however many corners are supposedly turned.

 

[Richard]

I think the last Ashes showed us Key could play if he can get rid of the silly shots - he certainly demonstrated that against Australia A at Hobart when England had to follow on (I still remember the headline on the back page of the Sunday Mail - a Brisbane paper), and he showed us he isn't afraid of going down the wicket and hitting Warne back over his head which takes guts to do IMO.

The last Ashes showed us Key can play every now and then - it didn't show us that he can play consistently.
This summer has suggested otherwise, with him batting somewhere near his proper position.
It is good that he has kept himself in the frame while not by any stretch pushing Butcher out.
I hope it stays that way for the next while.

 

[Richard]

Do they prepare different pitches for the Australian team?

Well, I don't know, you'd have to ask respective South African, Sri Lankan Arab and West Indian groundsmen that (the only away places Australia have played since 2001), but surely you must have noticed that in the last 3 years Australia have hardly played on wickets that have offered seam or turn until the recent Sri Lanka games (when they played on 3 which offered turn and 1 which offered seam)?

 

[marc71178]

I mean, take this for another hypothesis:
Butcher and Key both make plenty of runs in the warm-up games. Butcher is rightly afforded his place in The First Test, but the wicket is dicey, Pollock, Ntini and Nel are almost unplayable and Butcher scores 3 and 6. Key then comes in for the Second Test

If they view Butcher ahead of Key, then on match will not change that - something these selectors are to be applauded for.

 

[marc71178]

This summer has suggested otherwise, with him batting somewhere near his proper position.

Number 3 is closer to opening than any other spot.

 

[Richard]

If they view Butcher ahead of Key, then on match will not change that - something these selectors are to be applauded for.

You think not?
I don't.
Poor results can do funny things to the best of us.

 

[Richard]

Number 3 is closer to opening than any other spot.

Err, yes, I know that.
That's what I was saying...

 

[Aylott]

Key is too inconsistent take him on tour but Butcher should come back in the team in that run of 40 odd test matches he averages 40 odd he's more consistent