Robert Key to replace Butcher?

[Swervy]

i think most people believe that thorpe will retire after the ashes....nobody in their right mind would drop thorpe.
as far as butcher is concerned, the only way i would consider dropping him is if pieterson happens to live up to his reputation and if butcher continues to drop catches and not convert 50s to 100s

yeah....Butcher has got to start making the big scores (everyone else around him in the England team is...he has to contribute more).

I think they should give Key one more test and then maybe put Butcher back in for the last test. Both of them will probably be going to SA anyway

 

[marc71178]

I find this debate amazing.

But for that whiplash, Butcher would no doubt have played the last 2 matches, got a couple of fifties and nobody would be questioning his selection!

 

[steds]

But if Key would have continued his form for Kent, people would soon start asking whether or not Butcher or someone else should be dropped to accomadate Key

 

[Swervy]

I find this debate amazing.

But for that whiplash, Butcher would no doubt have played the last 2 matches, got a couple of fifties and nobody would be questioning his selection!

yeah but questions would be asked of why Butcher cant convert starts into big scores.

Key's double hundred cannot be ignored, but if he doesnt score big in the third test, I think Butcher should be brought back...to give him a chance.

 

[Timewell]

But if Key would have continued his form for Kent, people would soon start asking whether or not Butcher or someone else should be dropped to accomadate Key

His form for Kent is irrelevant if he cannot produce the goods for England. I couldn't care if he hit 5000 runs in a season for Kent...if he did it for England then sure...that will affect his selection but to base a selection policy on one innings such as the double century is just stupid. Not that you're saying this...but I am! Key has consistently under-performed on the international stage - he gets in and throws his wicket away. Shown against Zimbabwe of all teams...and he did that perfectly in the 2nd Test. Key is no international player - a decent domestic cricketer but no Number 3 Test batsman.

Everyone should remember that form is temporary, class is permanant.

 

[marc71178]

But if Key would have continued his form for Kent, people would soon start asking whether or not Butcher or someone else should be dropped to accomadate Key

Even if he kept averaging consistent 40's?

 

[wpdavid]

Even if he (Butcher) kept averaging consistent 40's?

I wonder how good an average of about 41 really is given the present standard of test attacks. Not special, when you look at the averages of the Aus, SA & Indian batters.

To be honest, I'd pick Butcher over Key if we were playing SA or Aus tomorrow, but Butcher only has himself to blame for not being fireproof. As someone mentioned earlier, his conversion rate isn't good enough and it's been too many innings since he reached three figures for England, so when someone comes in and makes the most of his good luck to pass 200 it's only natural that the question should be asked. But I think he'll be back and I wonder if we might see rather less of the soft dismissals now there's a bit of competiton for his place.

 

[tooextracool]

I find this debate amazing.

But for that whiplash, Butcher would no doubt have played the last 2 matches, got a couple of fifties and nobody would be questioning his selection!

it would probably also include a couple of dropped catches too

 

[Richard]

i think most people believe that thorpe will retire after the ashes....nobody in their right mind would drop thorpe.

If most people believe that then I think they are mistaken.
Thorpe wants to make-up for the large amount of lost time between 1999 and 2003 (in that time he actually missed 29 Tests) and packing it in at the tender age of 36 when you're more than good enough to carry-on isn't the way to do that.

 

[Craig]

With the form Ian Bell has been in this season, averaging around 82 for all FC matches for Warwickshire, and if Robert Key doesn't make a big score in the second innings, and Bell continues on with his run of form, it will be very hard to leave either one out for the final batting spot on the tour of South Africa.

To be fair to Key he did get a pearler of a ball by Corey Collymore (probably one of the best balls bowled by Collymore in Test cricket) and if he can elimate his soft dismissals mode in his game we have a Test standard batsman IMO and until he does it, the question of whether or not he is a Test standard batsman or not.

Both have been in great form for their counties this season, nobody can dispute it, but which one out of Ian Bell or Robert Key would you pick at this stage?

 

[marc71178]

Probably Bell, but Butcher ahead of either.

 

[Richard]

I really, really hope Bell doesn't get picked for Test-cricket just because he's recovered his form for one season.
His First-Class average is still only 43, and IMO it could and will be up around 50 if he doesn't play Test-cricket too soon.
That can only do him good.

 

[Richard]

With the form Ian Bell has been in this season, averaging around 82 for all FC matches for Warwickshire, and if Robert Key doesn't make a big score in the second innings, and Bell continues on with his run of form, it will be very hard to leave either one out for the final batting spot on the tour of South Africa.

To be fair to Key he did get a pearler of a ball by Corey Collymore (probably one of the best balls bowled by Collymore in Test cricket) and if he can elimate his soft dismissals mode in his game we have a Test standard batsman IMO and until he does it, the question of whether or not he is a Test standard batsman or not.

Ideal situation for me is that Key makes 50-55 in his second-innings here, Butcher is fit for The Oval, plays, makes 100 to improve his disappointing Test-record on his home-ground, reasserts his first claim on this place, but Key is the third opener picked for the South Africa tour.

 

[marc71178]

His First-Class average is still only 43, and IMO it could and will be up around 50 if he doesn't play Test-cricket too soon.

"Only 43"?

Well this year it's about 90 - a much more relevant figure.

I think it's almost certain he'll be at The Oval now.

 

[Richard]

To replace Thorpe if Thorpe isn't fit and neither is Butcher?
Yes, I'd think he's the likeliest, but I really hope that one season of extreme success doesn't make people think that two of pretty poor failure are suddenly irrelevant.

 

[Neil Pickup]

C4 reckoned that Thorpe and Butcher were 90% certain to both miss the Oval.

Who are the options?

Bell... Collingwood... McGrath... Ramprakash (*looks for West Indies shirt*)...

 

[SpaceMonkey]

C4 reckoned that Thorpe and Butcher were 90% certain to both miss the Oval.

Who are the options?

Bell... Collingwood... McGrath... Ramprakash (*looks for West Indies shirt*)...

Its got to be Bell, Collingwood is injured. Although Hick is in good form atm......

 

[Swervy]

Yep, I think its going to be Bell...well it should be Bell anyway

 

[Richard]

C4 reckoned that Thorpe and Butcher were 90% certain to both miss the Oval.

Who are the options?

Bell... Collingwood... McGrath... Ramprakash (*looks for West Indies shirt*)...

Were you just going from likely to impossible to silly-idea to OOTQ, there, or were you actually suggesting McGrath as a possible.
He's managed to get his average up to a wholly impressive 32 this season! Good, definately, I'm delighted, he's always underachieved, but I don't ever want to see him in the England whites again. Not unless he averages in the 50s for the next 3 seasons. Then maybe I'll reconsider.
Apparently it's now 100% certain to be no Butcher, no Thorpe at The Oval. A crying shame - that means basically there'll be no Surrey players on the Surrey ground.
And it means the Key situation can only get more messy.
Instead of being still in the frame he can either push Butcher further back or make himself less likely still to keep himself in the frame.

 

[Neil Pickup]

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if McGrath got picked.

Seriously, what other candidates are there?