Ricky Ponting overtakes Allan Border

[bagapath]

Pretty sure we have a "Ponting vs Sachin" thread for precisely this kind of pointless argument fellas. It's an irrelevant issue in what should be a thread celebrating Ricky's achievement.

He's a pretty amazing player. I for a long time had him behind Waugh and Border, but in the last couple of years he's gone past them in my books. To have scored so much in relatively so few tests is amazing - doing most of it at three, rather than 5 or 6 as well. What a champion.

yes. i agree. and we have done this several times before. but i have to make one point in response to ikki. history ignores minor statistical differences and treats style and overall impact on the game more favorably than a fraction here or there. when you compare batsmen who average 50 and above they all are on the same statistical plane. that is why ponting is likely to lose out to sachin and lara (no one says "sachins" and "laras" even when comparing them with bradman). but there is no shame in it. every batsman in history, bar a handful, will be ranked below them. it is for the same reason miandad is not rated on par with viv richards despite having a superior record. it is for the same reason g.chappell (style) and border (overall impact on australian cricket) got rated above ponting in the recent cricinfo polls.

 

[aussie]

In what perspective should it be?

Well reading it back again. I retract the statement.

Ponting's consistency extends to his record against each of the opposition teams - he averages more than 47 against every side, and more than 44 in every country where he has played more than one Test except in India. (Click here for his career summary.)

His record in India is the one black mark in an otherwise spotless career - in 12 Tests in that country, he has an aggregate of 438 runs and an average of 20.85. Everywhere else, he has been immense.

There's a theory that Ponting struggles against high-quality spin bowling, and while his stats against Harbhajan Singh justifies that argument - Harbhajan has dismissed him ten times in 12 Tests, the highest among all bowlers - Ponting has done remarkably well in Sri Lanka, averaging more than 54. One of his two centuries there was against Pakistan, but his average against Sri Lanka in Sri Lanka is impressive too - 50.11 in six Tests.

Its inital quote under the photo "Ricky Ponting has an excellent record in all countries except India", that bothered me. Since that contradcits the solid explanation of his IND performance above.

Although i'd be willing to say what occured in 98 & 2001 should be discared because Ponter became the great from TB 2001 when he started batting @ 3. So we should only look at what he did in IND last year.

 

[bagapath]

So we should only look at what he did in IND last year.

you mean this?

Ricky in India last year: 4 266 123 38.00 1 0

Still not good enough. In fact, that looks - for example - worse than sachin's overall record in SA including his worst series there.

mate. i think it is best to admit ricky's failing in india and move on. anything ricky has done in india apart from the century he scored in the first test is absolute crap. but he is still a great player overall. sobers failed against new zealand. sachin failed against SA in india. viv was never that hot against pak. gavaskar's record against england is mediocre. so it is okay for ponting to be a failure in india. let us admit it as a chink and move on.

 

[Pigeon]

if sachin retires today, ricky will overtake him in a couple of years or at least in 18 months. if sachin scores another 800 - 1000 runs ricky will need a few more series.

Sachin is not going to retire till 2011. It is hard to vision Ponting playing for another 1.5 years after that.

 

[Pigeon]

It kind of demonstrates the insecurity of Ponting's fan when Tendulkar has to be dragged into every thread.And it is plain funny to see stats spanning across decades being compared with. Tendulkar made his dough in the 90s while Ponting in the 00s, they were absolutely on top during their respective peaks, and batting improved dramatically in the 00s as compared to the 90s, particularly early 90s

 

[Jono]

Well done to Ponting. Been a champion batsman.

 

[Noble One]

Credit to Ricky Ponting, dominating batsman for the best part of a decade now.

Would prefer not to wade into any Ponting versus Tendulker debates. Given the nature of the record, more appropriate would have been a Ponting versus Border discussion?

 

[bagapath]

Credit to Ricky Ponting, dominating batsman for the best part of a decade now.

Would prefer not to wade into any Ponting versus Tendulker debates. Given the nature of the record, more appropriate would have been a Ponting versus Border discussion?

you'll be flamed dude. i brought up a ponting vs miandad debate sometime back and it was not appreciated.

moving on...

i love it when ponting cuts and pulls. he looks like a hungry tiger pouncing on poor cattle when he sees a short pitched ball. that doesnt mean his driving is less immaculate. except at the early stages of his innings when his on driving is a bit suspect, his drives usually travel to the boundary in a flash. he is a master at picking up gaps in the field. he is majestic in both front and back foot play. and againt pace and spin (except against bhaji). you dont score in excess of 10000 if you are not.

he has proved time and again he could take the match in his hands and turn it in australia's favor in a session, the true mark of a great batsman. despite the phenomenal success of hayden, langer, hussey and solid records of martyn and clark, it is actually ricky ponting, and then gichrist, who have led the australian batting in the post waugh era. they were to batting what mcgrath- warne were to the bowling department.

his innings in the 2003 final is possibly the most devastating knock played against india at the international stage, comparable to miandad's 1986 knock in terms of imapact, but matched in style only by jayasuriya's 189 in sharjah. but this coming in a WC final makes it the most special knock i can imagine against an in-form indian team. it should easily be among the top 10 ODI knocks of all time, if not in the top 5. his 156 in the 2005 ashes is an all-time great knock. these two knocks alone should assure him immortality. and he has done a lot more.

 

[Craig]

Yeah congratulations to Ricky Ponting, he has certainly deserved it. Stats and pointless debates about it, who really gives a **** in what order you rank SRT, BCL, and RTP? They are all greats for mine.

 

[Ikki]

you mean this?

Ricky in India last year: 4 266 123 38.00 1 0

Still not good enough. In fact, that looks - for example - worse than sachin's overall record in SA including his worst series there.

mate. i think it is best to admit ricky's failing in india and move on. anything ricky has done in india apart from the century he scored in the first test is absolute crap. but he is still a great player overall. sobers failed against new zealand. sachin failed against SA in india. viv was never that hot against pak. gavaskar's record against england is mediocre. so it is okay for ponting to be a failure in india. let us admit it as a chink and move on.

I agree. Ponting has, thus far, been a failure in India. Every all-time great has their black spot and Ponting's is in India.

 

[Ikki]

I will address each point by point :-

Consistency :- Ponting hasn't had the longevity of Tendulkar, so no he doesn't have the consistency of Tendulkar which is 20 years and counting compared to Ponting's 14, which is enough to include Ponting in any list of the greatest but that is not the point I am arguing, I am merely refuting your claim that 'Tendulkar can not touch Ponting's consistency'.

I am not talking about longevity, but consistency across all opponents.

Away/Home Performance :- I dont know where you get this idea that Tendulkar doesn't have an away record like Ponting's. It is really the other way round. It is no secret that Ponting benefits a lot more from playing at home. If Ponting played all his tests away he would be at least 1000+ runs short of his current total, Tendulkar would be about 200 short of his current total.

Ponting's only stain in his record is in India. Tendulkar doesn't have a good record against S.Africa, either home or away. And until recently Pakistan was in that picture too.

And for those that think I am dragging Tendulkar into it simply to make it a Vs. thread, no. I am just trying to show just how good Ponting is that even Tendulkar's record struggles to equate.

One can even take Sobers. Even having faced less opponents and arguably, overall, in less strength, he still has a poor record both home AND away against New Zealand. Ponting is one of the few (if not only, I can't remember) who only has a poor record in one place.

 

[bagapath]

Tendulkar doesn't have a good record against S.Africa, either home or away.

Tendy's away record in SA is not that bad. 3 centuries and a 42 average till his last series which brought it down to 39 was still looking better than ricky's record in england before this ashes. it is still twice as good as ricky's record in india. sachin Vs SA in India is what you should hold against him.

 

[Craig]

FFS take it to another thread.

 

[bagapath]

FFS take it to another thread.

i think it is a good idea for you to jump in and share your thoughts on ricky. may be that will get the thread going the way you want. i tried to do that a few posts before. not many have written specifically on him yet. still i dont believe people have nothing to say about ponting. time to hear some tributes.

 

[Ikki]

Tendy's away record in SA is not that bad. 3 centuries and a 42 average till his last series which brought it down to 39 was still looking better than ricky's record in england before this ashes. it is still twice as good as ricky's record in india. sachin Vs SA in India is what you should hold against him.

His record has actually been sub 40 for most of his career, it actually only started to go up to 42 once S.Africa were starting to rebuild having lost their main bowlers - the same for his record against Pakistan. So it essentially is going back down to what it used to be. His record against S.Africa in India is almost as poor as Ponting's TBH. It shouldn't really be argued, Ponting has the more complete record in terms of country v country home and away.

And this isn't to bring down Tendulkar or hold things against him; simply to put things in proper perspective. Sobers IIRC averages in the 20s overall against NZ. If someone were to mention that he couldn't be in the top 10 batsmen because of it, they'd be laughed out of whatever room they mentioned it. Worse, he averages 15 IN NZ, which is much worse than Ponting's in India or Sachin's SA in India record.

Ponting's record is unbelievably consistent, complete, superlative, with very few questions that can be legitimately asked of him. Yet as you said, and are sadly probably right, his name doesn't garner the same following as others.

 

[Ikki]

FFS take it to another thread.

FFS, stop.

Bagapath and I are discussing this in a pretty mature way and the last thing we need, nor invite, is a forum-nanny.

 

[Craig]

FFS, stop.

Bagapath and I are discussing this in a pretty mature way and the last thing we need, nor invite, is a forum-nanny.

I have no idea what makes you think I'm a forum-nanny, I'm nothing of the sort. But I'm sure there is a stats spread sheet out there suggests that I am.

 

[Ikki]

I have no idea what makes you think I'm a forum-nanny, I'm nothing of the sort. But I'm sure there is a stats spread sheet out there suggests that I am.

I am not trying to be harsh or anything mate. I know this topic has a bad history, especially with me, but when we are actually trying to be civil and the person in question is bagapath - a member with class - I doubt it'll descend into childish to-and-fro.

 

[Craig]

i think it is a good idea for you to jump in and share your thoughts on ricky. may be that will get the thread going the way you want. i tried to do that a few posts before. not many have written specifically on him yet. still i dont believe people have nothing to say about ponting. time to hear some tributes.

That he is probably one of Australia's best Test batsmen that I have seen (well Greg Chappell retired 18 months before I was born and I never really got to see Allan Border play live), right up there with Steve Waugh for me (would make an interesting debate). To me I don't think anybody can question Ponting's status in the game as a batsman (I'm not going to go down the stats route as it would make me look hypocritical). I will agree that India is Ponting's black mark, but geez Murali doesn't have the best Test record in Australia, and nobody thinks less of him as a bowler.

Certainly for me a great of the game.

 

[bagapath]

Ponting's position in the all-time list will be a reflection of how his style is perceived by cricket enthusiasts around the world.

well, he is definitely not "ugly" like shiv chanderpaul. he is just not a simple, and technically correct, hitter of the leather like gilly or sanath. he is not a stone waller in the dravid/ kallis mode. he is not even a maverick like dhoni or sehwag. he doesnt have the technical correctness of sachin or sangakkara. or the all-out flair of lara or pietersen. nor the grace of mahela or laxman.

but besides possessing a little bit of everything mentioned above, ricky ponting has his own sense of occasion. are you guys telling me I cant bat in India? take this hundred. this is the WC final and this is me, ricky ponting. ashes 1-1 and you want to save the test? leave it to me. just won the world cup, and i am happy to play under steve again. here is a century to welcome him back. ashes champions england! welcome to australia. 0-5 to you and the man of the series to me.

and he does this with minimum fuss; almost no theater. of late I am beginning to feel sachin is enjoying his personal successes more than his team's fate. but ricky looks like he cares more about australia. he brushes aside his personal triumphs and speaks about his team in more detail. could be because he is the skipper. but i assume he would never make a big deal of these milestones he is crossing every now and then even if he was not.

still, purely as a batter, he doesnt get my pulses racing. he is not boring but is he mechanical? i dont know. when miandad or border walked to the crease i would sit up and tell myself "there is still a battle to be won". steve waugh gave me the same feeling. ponting scores more freely than all three of them but i dont feel the same about him. he doesnt make me get drunk like viv richards or lara or the 90s sachin either. why? i just dont know what to look forward to in his batting. i consider myself a sucker for flair players but over the years i have started worshipping fighters. still i dont know why i dont love him despite respecting/liking him. and i am not alone in feeling this way about ponting.