Richards v Tendulkar - ODIs

[NYLove78]

Sorry, you are pathetic. Any Tom, Dick or Harry could edit WIKI. I've asked for concrete evidence. You failed. It's an EPIC FAIL. You talk about such a delivery, in a televised match, but could not find the clip. I am LMAO.

Sorry but you are even more pathetic. You are probably ignorant of the fact that WIKI has various ‘designations’ for editors with valid accounts and good profiles who actually are “administrators”, “rollbackers” etc. They ensure that claims are backed up and that the articles supporting them are “reliable sources”. Feel sad to see you like this. You don’t want to believe this from one of the most reputed newspapers of South Asia or also this But how you cannot believe this which is an extract by well known and respected former cricketers like Ian Chappell and Ashley Mallett is beyond me. BUT than again who cares whether you accept or not? For me and countless others this is sufficient.

Your logic viz heights of Thomson and Shoaib is laughable. Shoaib is short?! He is 6 feet tall …. SIX. Thomson was NOT taller than that for sure. It is PACE and NOT BOUNCE that will keep a ball from going on and on (to hit the sightscreen as in this case). True you need some bounce (vertical effect) but the pace (horizontal component) has to be SO high that the ball would travel as much as it could before the gravitational pull would bring it down to touch the ground at its usual rate of around 9.8 m/secsq. The ball is always coming down at that rate. To hit the SS before the bounce the ball has to be FAST ENOUGH.

By your logic Garner, Van Der Bijl, Willis and Ambrose should have hit the SS more often than anybody else. They were never even remotely close. Guys like Kortright, Tyson, Gilchrist and Thomson were the people who did it for sure as there are reliable records. The sightscreens were also farther down back in the 70s and 80s (pre-ropes). AND YET Chappell and Mallett say so in a book co-written by them. FACT is NONE of the quicks of the 90s/00s came remotely, remotely, remotely close to doing what those four guys at the least did more than once.

 

[NYLove78]

Once again that's your opinion and you are judging by camera angles. Sorry, unless you show me with concrete graphical evidence that WK for Thomson was much far back (at least 25% more, considering Akthar was shorter and got less bounce) than for Akthar, you are talking rubbish.

I am NOT assuming here. I KNOW that for Thomson and for Lillee as well the WK (Rodney Marsh) used to stand 30 to 40 meters behind the stumps. I will be back with the proof later this week. I READ so. Unless you want to say that I am lying. If you watch YT vids from the 70s and early 80s till 83/84 you will not see any inside circle. You FAILED to read what I had written that it was only in 83/84 that the circle was first drawn. I will try to locate the source though no sure when I can be back with it.

 

[Ikki]

YouTube - Dennis Lillee: 8-29 against World 11

Sobers says here that when Lillee was bowling Marsh was about 25 yards back. Since Thomson was faster it is logical to assume he'd be even further back. Of course, yards are shorter than metres.

 

[NYLove78]

Assumptions, Assumptions and Asumptions. Pascoe and Gilmour does not remotely close to Lee / Tait / Akthar on tape.

But were umpteen times better bowlers than Gilmopur, Pascoe, Willis, Thomson etc in ODIs. You are talking of speed, I am speaking about quality. If a 75mph bowler averages 15 with the ball, he'll be comfortably better than any 100mph bowler in the history of the game.

The avg, SR, ER has to be standardized, as I did for SRT and IVAR. Then they are miles behind the current bowlers. Now you are the one stated that batting is easy now. So bowlers have suffered, and ER of 4.5 in 1980 is far worse than tha of 2010 as a result. Sorry, you are intellectually dishonest in your argument.

Ha from a guy who cannot even recognize Pascoe or Gilmour on sight let alone have watched them in action.

Len Pascoe Averaged 26 in Tests with a ER < 3 and a SR of 53 and Averaged 20 in ODIs with a ER of 4 and a SR < 30

Gary Gilmour Averaged 26 in Tests with a ER of 3 and a SR of 49 and Averaged 10 in ODIs with a ER of 3 and a SR of 20

Besides he holds the BEST EVER bowling figures for a single ODI match. An excellent very fast swing bowler (Wayne Prior was another guy AUS had at that time and he was still faster and had some great contests with Richards in the Packer WSC).

Rodney Hogg Averaged 25 in Tests with a ER of 2.5 and a SR of 58 (excluding West Indies for Richards and Sri Lanka as they were allegedly ‘minnows’)

And

he also Averaged 20 in ODIs with a ER of 3.4 and a SR of 34 (excluding WI and SL)

Bad stats those? On paper these guys had better stats than those of the 90s and 00s. Agreed they played fewer matches and Akram, Donald, McGrath and Shoaib were better over their careers. But you CANNOT diss these guys. They were better than Gillespie, Nitini and many such guys. Remove Richards and one cannot be certain what Pascoe and Hogg would have achieved.

Like Pascoe, Graham Dilley, Greg Thomas, Garth LeRoux, and others, Hogg rubbed King Richards the wrong way and was savaged thereafter. It is my belief that these are among the guys who could have been all-time greats – they had 95 mph pace, swing, nasty bouncer, great Yorkers, and many other attributes needed of a fast bowler - had it not been largely for Richards ….

Hogg made the mistake early in his career of hitting Richards on the left cheek on a fast bouncy unpredictable ’79 Adelaide pitch. He was put into the stands next ball and massacred thereafter.

Richards’ clashes with Pascoe were probably more intriguing than those with Lillee, Thomson, Imran, Hadlee, Willis, Botham, Kapil, Nawaz etc.

One famous Richards and Pascoe story:-

On a lightning fast Perth track, Len Pascoe had taken 2 early wickets and was breathing fire, when Viv Richards came in to bat. The first ball was a very quick bouncer which Richards playing as usual without a helmet ducked under. The second too was a bouncer screaming past the nose of Richards which he just managed to sway away from, when Pascoe walked down the pitch and asked " smell the leather Vivi ? "

The third ball; Richards walked down the wicket as the bowler was bowling and smashed it a few rows into the longon stands. The fourth ball was again a bouncer and Viv disdainfully smashed over squareleg for another six, walked down the track, patted the spot where the ball had pitched, and as he turned back, waved a forefinger at Pascoe, saying " Lennie maan, I'll slice you like butter maan"

Ian Chappell writes about Richards and Pascoe:-

Lenny was bowling to Viv, and he's bowled him three bouncers in a row," ``After the third one, Len was walking back past umpire Max O'Connell and Max said, `Len, that'll be enough for this over'. And a voice came from the other end: `Max, please don't stop him.' It was the voice of Viv Richards." Concluded Chappell: ``Intimidation is a two-way street."

Len Pascoe on his own words: -

Till the Patil incident I had no qualms over wanting to hit batsmen... After all, if (Sir) Viv Richards kept smashing you, you’d want to break his arm... It’s another matter that I couldn’t inject fear in Viv.

On the most destructive batsman?

Viv... He would destroy you mentally, physically and emotionally... Had he still been playing, he would’ve made mincemeat of today’s bowlers.

On whether, having been in an era when Dennis Lillee and Jeff Thomson ruled, he actually got the recognition he deserved

I came up in a period when there were many fast bowlers... Lillee, Thommo, Max Walker, Gary Gilmour, Rodney Hogg ....

 

[Migara]

I am NOT assuming here. I KNOW that for Thomson and for Lillee as well the WK (Rodney Marsh) used to stand 30 to 40 meters behind the stumps. I will be back with the proof later this week. I READ so. Unless you want to say that I am lying. If you watch YT vids from the 70s and early 80s till 83/84 you will not see any inside circle. You FAILED to read what I had written that it was only in 83/84 that the circle was first drawn. I will try to locate the source though no sure when I can be back with it.

Now PROVE that for SHOAIB in full flow, the keeper was around 25m. A can clearly remember fro Mohammed Akram when he played ENG in early or mid 1990s, the WK was between the boundary and the 30yd circle. Going by that Md Akram should be considerably quicker than Thomson. I have asked for PROOF, but you have FAILED to show it. I did not ask for hi-tech things, only two snapshots where for Thomson WK is very much far back than Shoaib. Sorry, you continue to run away from the challenge.

 

[NYLove78]

YouTube - Dennis Lillee: 8-29 against World 11

Sobers says here that when Lillee was bowling Marsh was about 25 yards back. Since Thomson was faster it is logical to assume he'd be even further back. Of course, yards are shorter than metres.

Sobers says so here and there is also a extract from a book iirc written by a former player that says that the WK was standing 30+ yards behind the stumps for Lillee and even more so for Thomson.

One pace in bowler's language is about three yards. Marshall, that too on a comparatively less fast English county pitch, had his wicketkeeper stand more than 30 yards behind the stumps i.e. OUTSIDE the inner circle. See Mark Nicholas' comment at the end of this page.

That 254 was the GREATEST innings ever played by anybody from any era against anybody in any format on any of the 6 continents though. That is one of my favourited videos on YT. Love the look in Lillee's eyes when asked about bouncing Sobers and the mutual regard that Sobers and Chappell have for each other.

This is a wonderful piece from Ian Chappell at his vintage best as he speaks about Sobers (who he rates as the best batsman he ever saw till date) -
He was 139 not out on the night before the rest day, and it was our turn to go into their dressing room. I head over in his direction to congratulate him, and he says: "Sit down, come over here." So just the two of us are in a quiet corner, and after I pour him a beer, he has a sip and then says, "Prue's left me." Prue being his wife who lived in Melbourne in those days. I said: "Sobie, if that's the bloody thing that's annoying you so much, give me her phone number, and I'll tell her to get bloody home straight away." You know, he just laughed. And it didn't make any difference - he came out and belted us again.

 

[NYLove78]

Now PROVE that for SHOAIB in full flow, the keeper was around 25m. A can clearly remember fro Mohammed Akram when he played ENG in early or mid 1990s, the WK was between the boundary and the 30yd circle. Going by that Md Akram should be considerably quicker than Thomson. I have asked for PROOF, but you have FAILED to show it. I did not ask for hi-tech things, only two snapshots where for Thomson WK is very much far back than Shoaib. Sorry, you continue to run away from the challenge.

Maybe you saw Jeff Thomson in 83/84

Medium-pacer Mohd Akram debuted in '95/'96 and was not around in the early 90s. His pace was so terrorizing that he averaged a majestic 71 with a stupendous strike-rate of 132 in the ONLY match he played against the poor 90s England batting. He NEVER bowled to England in ODIs. Sorry you are the one who is failing again and again.

This is what a Pakistani Kamran Abbasi has to say about the medium-pacer wherein he has NOT A WORD about his pace and calls him a medium-pacer at the very outset -

Mohammad Akram is a tall, right-arm fast-medium bowler who hits the pitch hard and is a handful on a wicket with bounce. He has an awkward, rigid approach to the crease but was one of the more consistent Pakistan bowlers before he chose a life in England. He is not a big swinger, relying more on seam movement. Akram found it difficult to secure a regular Test place thanks to the enduring talents of Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis plus the emergence of Shoaib Akhtar and Mohammad Sami. But he was a useful man to have as back-up, even though his batting and fielding are best forgotten. He had a brief sojourn in England playing for Northants in 1995 as replacement for Curtly Amrbrose, who was on tour with West Indies. After marrying an Anglo-Pakistani from Walthamstow, he settled in England, and turned out for Essex and Sussex in 2003 and 2004 respectively, as a non-overseas player, before signing a three-year contract with Surrey and professing a desire to play for his adopted country.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

You can't judge anything by where different keepers stand. Some like to take the ball on the rise and some on the drop and therefore different keepers stand different distances back to the same bowler.

 

[NYLove78]

This one was the clincher for me. No doubt in my mind now, Richards >>>>> Sachin.

My friend, my point was, which I think you did get, that SRT had the luxury, of not facing the best of his era in conditions less favorable for batting. As it is, absence of protective gear, so many batsmen protective rules, and covered pitches, had made batsmen's lives easier from the dawn of the 90s. A McGrath- Gillespie attack was not even remotely physically threatening for several reasons as compared to an attack from among Lillee, Thomson, Pascoe, Gilmour, Walker, Hogg etc.

AND DESPITE that he faced McGrath and Gillespie in AUS zero times. Go back to the page where I showed that he faced WI/Aus/Eng/SA/Pak/NZ/SL outside of the flat track regions like the subcontinent all of 26% of the time. and that when England (except Ashes 05) and New Zealand (except when with fit Bond) were also crap in this period.

 

[NYLove78]

You can't judge anything by where different keepers stand. Some like to take the ball on the rise and some on the drop and therefore different keepers stand different distances back to the same bowler.

You cannot judge true but do you really think that you cannot judge at all. A very simple example being that the wk is right behind the wicket for spinners and other slow-medium guys; while he is further down for the rest. I would say it is safe to say that the guy has either pace or bounce or both from seeing where the WK stands.

In any case in 20 years for none of Younis, Devon Malcolm, Donald, Mohammad Zahid, Shoaib, Lee, Bond, and Tait as also anybody else in this period, did I see the WK stand anywhere that close to the circle let alone on it or beyond.

 

[Migara]

NYLove78 is intelectually dishonest because he keeps applying double standards.

Yes, Pascoes stats look wonderful when considred to todays stats. but they should be compared to the stats of his era. Otherwise if you keep stats picking Hussey > Richards and Dhoni > Richards.
Here ROW = Rest of the World bowlers

Pascoe: Avg - 20.11, SR - 29.5, ER - 4.07
ROW: Avg - 26.77, SR - 43.3, ER - 3.70 - Now this includes spiinners as well. If you filter out spinners then
ROWF: Avg: 25.25, SR - 41.6, ER - 3.64

It shows Len Pascoe is a bowler who was ahead of his peers in Strike rate, but wase rather expensive. But he played only 29 matches. Still no big deal when it came to his era.

Pascoes was known to be sledgable and to lose it. Ian Chappel had done it to him few times in local games. I would call it a "soft" temperment. Conclusion no where near as an ODI bowler as Ambrose, Akram or McGrath although pacier than either of the three.

Garry Gilmour had that one freak match, and played only five matches. So not even worth a mention for a stats comparison. And he's categorized as Left arm fast medium. According to what I've herad he thrived on ENG conditions, but even wasn't good for Aussie FC standard . Only 19 List A matches shows he was considered as a joke if it wasn't for that one freak match especially when came to fitness.

Rodney Hogg is worth a comparison because he has played a lot unlike Pascoe or Gilmour.
Hogg: Avg - 28.44, SR - 43.2, ER - 3.94
ROWF: Avg - 28.37, SR - 43.6, ER - 3.90

Conclusion, Rodney Hogg was Average, by his era.

Now compare that to McGrath
McGrath: Avg 22.2, SR - 34.0, ER - 3.88
ROWF: Avg: 31.35, SR - 40.1, ER - 4.68

Unlike Pascoe or Hogg, McGrath is heads and shoulders above his fellow fast men in every aspect of the game bar pace.

Then we'll take Pollock
Pollock: Avg 24.50, SR - 39.9, ER - 3.67
ROWF: Avg 31.31, SR - 39.6, ER - 4.73

Once again heads and shoulders above every aspect of the game unlike Pascoe who was expensive or Hogg who was average.

Then we take Muralitharan
Murali: Avg - 22.93, SR - 35.1, ER - 3.91
ROWS: Avg - 34.92, SR - 45.8, ER - 4.57

Miles above the spinners of his generation.

What NYLove78 fails to understand is Fast is not necessarily good. SRT played much more classier ODI bowlers than IVAR, especially the spinners.

 

[Migara]

Maybe you saw Jeff Thomson in 83/84

Medium-pacer Mohd Akram debuted in '95/'96 and was not around in the early 90s. His pace was so terrorizing that he averaged a majestic 71 with a stupendous strike-rate of 132 in the ONLY match he played against the poor 90s England batting. He NEVER bowled to England in ODIs. Sorry you are the one who is failing again and again.

This is what a Pakistani Kamran Abbasi has to say about the medium-pacer wherein he has NOT A WORD about his pace and calls him a medium-pacer at the very outset -

Mohammad Akram is a tall, right-arm fast-medium bowler who hits the pitch hard and is a handful on a wicket with bounce. He has an awkward, rigid approach to the crease but was one of the more consistent Pakistan bowlers before he chose a life in England. He is not a big swinger, relying more on seam movement. Akram found it difficult to secure a regular Test place thanks to the enduring talents of Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis plus the emergence of Shoaib Akhtar and Mohammad Sami. But he was a useful man to have as back-up, even though his batting and fielding are best forgotten. He had a brief sojourn in England playing for Northants in 1995 as replacement for Curtly Amrbrose, who was on tour with West Indies. After marrying an Anglo-Pakistani from Walthamstow, he settled in England, and turned out for Essex and Sussex in 2003 and 2004 respectively, as a non-overseas player, before signing a three-year contract with Surrey and professing a desire to play for his adopted country.

I have seen him debuted in Pakistan in 1993/94 on a slow graveyard, and beating de Silva for pace on it. Ambrose, Waqar, Wasim, Akthar, Lee could never do it to SIlva. And the keeper was miles back. Suppose you should see the films.

And your double standars are pretty evident when you bring out Kamran Abbasi's rant saying Md. Akram was medium paced (on cric info) but keeps adeath silence when Garry Gilmour is also categorized as "fast medium"

 

[Migara]

Sobers says so here and there is also a extract from a book iirc written by a former player that says that the WK was standing 30+ yards behind the stumps for Lillee and even more so for Thomson.

One pace in bowler's language is about three yards. Marshall, that too on a comparatively less fast English county pitch, had his wicketkeeper stand more than 30 yards behind the stumps i.e. OUTSIDE the inner circle. See Mark Nicholas' comment at the end of this page.

That 254 was the GREATEST innings ever played by anybody from any era against anybody in any format on any of the 6 continents though. That is one of my favourited videos on YT. Love the look in Lillee's eyes when asked about bouncing Sobers and the mutual regard that Sobers and Chappell have for each other.

This is a wonderful piece from Ian Chappell at his vintage best as he speaks about Sobers (who he rates as the best batsman he ever saw till date) -
He was 139 not out on the night before the rest day, and it was our turn to go into their dressing room. I head over in his direction to congratulate him, and he says: "Sit down, come over here." So just the two of us are in a quiet corner, and after I pour him a beer, he has a sip and then says, "Prue's left me." Prue being his wife who lived in Melbourne in those days. I said: "Sobie, if that's the bloody thing that's annoying you so much, give me her phone number, and I'll tell her to get bloody home straight away." You know, he just laughed. And it didn't make any difference - he came out and belted us again.

Once again you are talikng BS. Even on slow tracks of Pakistan for Shoaib WK is out of the circle. You have not still proved that For Thomson WK stood much further than for Shoaib.

 

[NYLove78]

Once again you are talikng BS. Even on slow tracks of Pakistan for Shoaib WK is out of the circle. You have not still proved that For Thomson WK stood much further than for Shoaib.

Lets take a poll on CW with yes to ppl who saw the WK outside, on, or even close to the inner circle for Shoaib and no to the rest. There will be ONE vote to yes i.t excluding the satyams and cevnos etc.

Once again,

Len Pascoe Averaged 26 in Tests with a ER < 3 and a SR of 53

and

Averaged 20 in ODIs with a ER of 4 and a SR < 30

Gary Gilmour

Averaged 26 in Tests with a ER of 3 and a SR of 49

and

Averaged 10 in ODIs with a ER of 3 and a SR of 20

Rodney Hogg

Averaged 25 in Tests with a ER of 2.5 and a SR of 58 (excluding West Indies for Richards and Sri Lanka as they were allegedly ‘minnows’)

and

Averaged 20 in ODIs with a ER of 3.4 and a SR of 34 (excluding WI and SL)

EVERY match he played the WI Richards was present and you do not accord Richards respect for that. I want to see which super-fast bowler SRT flayed and ruined the stats of like Richards did Hogg.

Yes SRT played these "fine ODI bowlers" and DESPITE a ton of protective gear and DESPITE a ton of batsmen protecting rules and DESPITE inferior backups, and DESPITE covered wickets, he needed the flat decks of the subcontinent to score off them. If he played them in Ais or their own backyards his stats are decorated with lots of zeros and single digits in adorning his highest score, average, centuries, column etc.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

You cannot judge true but do you really think that you cannot judge at all. A very simple example being that the wk is right behind the wicket for spinners and other slow-medium guys; while he is further down for the rest. I would say it is safe to say that the guy has either pace or bounce or both from seeing where the WK stands.

What's that got to do with anything? The point is a keeper that takes the ball on the rise might stand five yards closer than one who takes in on the drop. Alan Knott might have stood five yards closer to Jeff Thomson than Rodney Marsh did, but Thomson would still have been bowling at the same pace. Therefore saying that Marshall, Ahktar or anyone else had the keeper further back means nothing unless you're talking about the same keeper.

 

[NYLove78]

Hogg: Avg - 28.44, SR - 43.2, ER - 3.94
ROWF: Avg - 28.37, SR - 43.6, ER - 3.90


McGrath: Avg 22.2, SR - 34.0, ER - 3.88
ROWF: Avg: 31.35, SR - 40.1, ER - 4.68

Pollock: Avg 24.50, SR - 39.9, ER - 3.67
ROWF: Avg 31.31, SR - 39.6, ER - 4.73

Murali: Avg - 22.93, SR - 35.1, ER - 3.91
ROWS: Avg - 34.92, SR - 45.8, ER - 4.57

Miles above the spinners of his generation.

Migara make the adjustments for the Average, ER and SR for the bowlers (the way you did for IVAR to get 48 and 100) and see what you get.

Len Pascoe Averaged 26 in Tests with a ER < 3 and a SR of 53

and

Averaged 20 in ODIs with a ER of 4 and a SR < 30

Pascoe conceded more BUT STRUCK MUCH BETTER a strike rate of 29 vs 34 for McGrath and 40 for Pollock.

Gary Gilmour

Averaged 26 in Tests with a ER of 3 and a SR of 49

and

Averaged 10 in ODIs with a ER of 3 and a SR of 20

Rodney Hogg

Averaged 25 in Tests with a ER of 2.5 and a SR of 58 (excluding West Indies for Richards and Sri Lanka as they were allegedly ‘minnows’)

and

Averaged 20 in ODIs with a ER of 3.4 and a SR of 34 (excluding WI and SL)

Take Richards out of the equation and the weaker SL teams as well and he averages better, concedes less and strikes better than Pollock Do the statistics by adjusting between the two eras and it will still be the same. His SR is the same as McGrath (will decline if you adjust) BUT his average will still be better as also his ER.

Frankly no use arguing with you for you make it a point to disagree with whatever I say.

 

[Migara]

Lets take a poll on CW with yes to ppl who saw the WK outside, on, or even close to the inner circle for Shoaib and no to the rest. There will be ONE vote to yes i.t excluding the satyams and cevnos etc.

Once again,

Len Pascoe Averaged 26 in Tests with a ER < 3 and a SR of 53

and

Averaged 20 in ODIs with a ER of 4 and a SR < 30

Gary Gilmour

Averaged 26 in Tests with a ER of 3 and a SR of 49

and

Averaged 10 in ODIs with a ER of 3 and a SR of 20

Rodney Hogg

Averaged 25 in Tests with a ER of 2.5 and a SR of 58 (excluding West Indies for Richards and Sri Lanka as they were allegedly ‘minnows’)

and

Averaged 20 in ODIs with a ER of 3.4 and a SR of 34 (excluding WI and SL)

EVERY match he played the WI Richards was present and you do not accord Richards respect for that. I want to see which super-fast bowler SRT flayed and ruined the stats of like Richards did Hogg.

Yes SRT played these "fine ODI bowlers" and DESPITE a ton of protective gear and DESPITE a ton of batsmen protecting rules and DESPITE inferior backups, and DESPITE covered wickets, he needed the flat decks of the subcontinent to score off them. If he played them in Aus or their own backyards his stats are decorated with lots of zeros and single digits in adorning his highest score, average, centuries, column etc.

1: Keep the test stats out of this. You post them to complicate the picture. McGrath is the best ever ODI bowler for me but not in tests. So cut the crap out.

2: Rodney Hogg may be faster, but inferior bowler even to Pollock, who don't regard to be as top 5 ODI bowlers ever. But still he's miles behid Pollock. The fact still stands. SRT played far better ODI bowlers than IVAR. Let's not bring test bowlers in to the argment.

3. Gary Gilmour played a humungous number of 5 ODIs. Sample size is too less. No point in bringing him in to the discussion. His stats are due to small sample size and statisticians don't give a **** when interpreting small sample sizes

4. You are continuing on your intellectual dishonesty by posting absolute numbers without comparing to the norm of the era.

5. The better "ODI" bowlers did not care about intimidation. They achieved it by other means. How many times have you seen McGrath or Akram going for the head of the bastmen? They did not want a bouncer to get the people **** scared of them. Their length delivery scared them off. Whether SRT played with a helmet or not would have mattered much with McGrath or Pollock bowling to him. Their plan was different.

6. The bolded part is pure laughable stuff. Legend in one era is a legend in another era. I would say if IVAR played today, e would have been tied down instead of attacked by bowlers like McGrath and Pollock. With reverse swing which IVAR never faced and with spinners I could say he would score far less runs than what he used to.

 

[vcs]

My friend, my point was, which I think you did get, that SRT had the luxury, of not facing the best of his era in conditions less favorable for batting. As it is, absence of protective gear, so many batsmen protective rules, and covered pitches, had made batsmen's lives easier from the dawn of the 90s. A McGrath- Gillespie attack was not even remotely physically threatening for several reasons as compared to an attack from among Lillee, Thomson, Pascoe, Gilmour, Walker, Hogg etc.

AND DESPITE that he faced McGrath and Gillespie in AUS zero times. Go back to the page where I showed that he faced WI/Aus/Eng/SA/Pak/NZ/SL outside of the flat track regions like the subcontinent all of 26% of the time. and that when England (except Ashes 05) and New Zealand (except when with fit Bond) were also crap in this period.

You may have some fair points but I can't really be bothered to continue this discussion because your default position seems to be that you don't really rate the cricket played in this era and belittle Tendulkar at every single opportunity. It's a wonder how every batsman isn't averaging 45+ with 10000+ runs in this era of flat pitches, protection, fielding restrictions etc. etc.

 

[Migara]

Now before NYLove78 diverts the discussion here are the summary of points that we've discussed

Points for IVAR

1. Has a better Avg, and SR when adjusted to the normas of the era he played
2. Played on bad tracks / seamer friendly tracks

Paoints put for ward by NYLove78
3. Played quicker bowlers - which needs clarification. No one except NYLove78 thinks that Thomson was significantly faster than Shoaib. And some think that even Shoib is not the fastest in our era.

4. Played with less protective equipment - I have shown that if SRT was brought up like that would have done the same.


Points for SRT

1. Played better ODI bowlers
2. Played better spinners
3. Played ODI bowlers who took most of the wickets without using intimidation
4. Played more ODIs
5. Played on much spin friendlier tracks

 

[NYLove78]

You may have some fair points but I can't really be bothered to continue this discussion because your default position seems to be that you don't really rate the cricket played in this era and belittle Tendulkar at every single opportunity. It's a wonder how every batsman isn't averaging 45+ with 10000+ runs in this era of flat pitches, protection, fielding restrictions etc. etc.

Extremism begets extremism from me. Had some of those posters not kept repeating BS statements like "1 bil hopes" (in a country where 30% of ppl dont have two sq meals a day) and "poor batting" (despite Azhar, Sidhu, Jadeja (ODIs), Dravid, Sehwah, Yuvraj, Dhoni and a certain Ganguly (who has better performances in Aus in ODIs than SRT)) I have to resort to the same. SRT is a close second best of this 1990 to 2010 era after Lara. That I have already said. Dont know where they rate but I for sure rate Bradman, Richards, Sobers, Hammond, Hobbs, Kanhai, Gavaskar and Chappell above them both.

I too am tired with the circuitous statements of Miagara and the next post shall be my last at least for a while and surely on this thread.