Player of the Decade - Ponting

[Pratters]

So you think Clive Lloyd is the greatest West Indian captain ever? Above some one like Frank Worrell?

 

[Streetwise]

So you think Clive Lloyd is the greatest West Indian captain ever? Above some one like Frank Worrell?

Like I said earlier, it makes no diference who is better Worrell or Lloyd because Ponting will still be the captain that has won the most test matches, he still will be the best ODI captain ever to play and his exploits as WC captain probably will never be surpassed.

 

[aussie]

aussie probs will by reminding us all that Kallis just plain forgot how to bowl at Midnight on 31/12/2002

EDIT: Well how 'bout that

Haa..good to see i'm gettin through to some people

 

[howardj]

Could you imagine if an Aussie or Pom had 8 000+ Test runs with an average in the mid-50's, and 250+ Test wickets @ 30.

They'd be canonised.

 

[Uppercut]

Have a feeling that in the coming years there will be a revisionist cricket history movement that will finally recognise Ponting for the brilliant player he is rather than the criticism he has endured for the last 5 years since taking upon the Australian captaincy

I rather agree. Criticism of someone for playing on flat pitches is somewhat ridiculous (not to mention disgustingly overstated at times). Ponting scored, and is still scoring, a terrifying amount of runs. What the hell else is a batsman supposed to do?

...Well in Kallis's case, take a couple of hundred wickets too. But they're both ****ing good.

 

[Jono]

Could you imagine if an Aussie or Pom had 8 000+ Test runs with an average in the mid-50's, and 250+ Test wickets @ 30.

They'd be canonised.

Yeah, said on many occasions that Kallis and Pollock are underrated on the whole because they're South African.

Ah well.

 

[aussie]

Could you imagine if an Aussie or Pom had 8 000+ Test runs with an average in the mid-50's, and 250+ Test wickets @ 30.

They'd be canonised.

Yea this true. But at the same time Kallis tends to get overated when he compared to Sobers..

 

[Uppercut]

I'd say because flat tracks aren't as much of a problem for guys who turn it a mile as they are for seamers. If you fall in the latter category then you have to be very, very good to take wickets consistently at the rate and average McGrath did.

I'd probably have Murali higher myself, but would have no problem whatsoever with McGrath at no.1.

That doesn't really refute the argument for Murali tbh. All you're saying is that he spun the ball on ice and therefore flat tracks weren't a problem for him. It's no different from saying McGrath was superhumanly awesome and therefore flat tracks weren't a problem for him.

 

[aussie]

I rather agree. Criticism of someone for playing on flat pitches is somewhat ridiculous (not to mention disgustingly overstated at times). Ponting scored, and is still scoring, a terrifying amount of runs. What the hell else is a batsman supposed to do?

...Well in Kallis's case, take a couple of hundred wickets too. But they're both ****ing good.

Ponting domianted bowler/the best of bowlers on roads & in bowler friendly condtions (not so much vs spinners on turners - just was solid). So it balances out for him. He isn't like the many typical FTBs of the 2000s who mainly just dominant on roads..

 

[Johnners]

That doesn't really refute the argument for Murali tbh. All you're saying is that he spun the ball on ice and therefore flat tracks weren't a problem for him. It's no different from saying McGrath was superhumanly awesome and therefore flat tracks weren't a problem for him.

I think the point he's trying to make is that "flat tracks" in general offer more assistance to spinners than fast bowlers.

 

[JBH001]

Dont think that is necessarily the case. Usually when it comes to flat tracks I think quality fast bowlers have the edge over quality spinners. Look at Murali's recent record on flat tracks (especially those killers in Pakistan) where he came up short - although his decline over the last two years may have also had something to do with that.

 

[Prince EWS]

I still haven't seen Prince EWS' argument that Kallis>Ponting because of his bowling being refuted.

Yeah, I can't see an argument for any specialist batsman of the decade being a better player than Kallis. If someone wanted to see that McGrath, Murali or even Gilchrist was better than Kallis I'd see the point - I'd disagree but I could at least follow the logic. Equally I could see the logic behind naming Ponting second behind Kallis.. but while I agree that Kallis wasn't the best batsman of the decade, the fact that he was so close and also a good bowler should surely put him ahead of every specialist batsman in terms of his value.

 

[Prince EWS]

Well 173 wickets @ 35 in 90 games is hardly a major achievement.

I don't really agree, particularly given the mean bowling average for the decade and particularly given the fact that he was South Africa's fifth bowler. The difference between doing that while commanding your place as a batsman, and not bowling at all while commanding your place as a batsman, is far greater than the difference between Ponting's batting and Kallis's batting. Ponting's batting was better than Kallis's batting but certainly not by the huge margin in which Kallis's bowling was better than Ponting's.

 

[aussie]

Dont think that is necessarily the case. Usually when it comes to flat tracks I think quality fast bowlers have the edge over quality spinners. Look at Murali's recent record on flat tracks (especially those killers in Pakistan) where he came up short - although his decline over the last two years may have also had something to do with that.

Yea i would think a fast bowler who can reverse swing the ball, would be just as effective as a spinner on a flat deck who would be looking to get batsmen out by bowling into the rough area's.

 

[Johnners]

Not saying I agree with SoC fwiw (really not sure what to think of it) just that I think that was the point he was trying to get across.

 

[Ausage]

In the end these cross discipline "best of" debates come down largely to what an individual values. It's pretty easy see the variance in how different people value different disciplines.

There are clear standouts in the disciplines, and the amount of discussion that would have raged if Murali, McGrath or Kallis had won it would be no different to it is now. Really, there is no objective way to split Murali/McGrath/Kallis/Ponting as there are valid arguments for all four.

I'm of the opinion that Ponting got the nod because of the significant amount of added pressure he's had to deal with, and the leadership he's provided to the best team of the decade, not to mention successfully leading his country through a difficult transition phase. He's not the most tactically astute captain, but he's very much an inspirational one, and generally fires for his team when they need him most. It's no coincidence that Australia's recent batting collapses that have been losing us test matches have occurred with Punter low on form.

He's had to deal with significant amounts of pressure over his tactical decisions, the behaviour of his players, the performance of his team and at times himself, and he's continued scoring runs throughout. His as mentally resilient a sportsman as you'll find, and in a game where so much of the action takes place in between the ears that counts for something surely.

And as we speak the guy is closing in on a 200. imo.

 

[thierry henry]

Yea this true. But at the same time Kallis tends to get overated when he compared to Sobers..

So people compare two players (the only two players ever) because they have damn near identical records, 90% of people complain that it's an insult to Sobers to even be compared to a fat Saffer like Kallis, and somehow that counts as overrating Kallis? imo Kallis never gets more underrated than when compared with GS.

 

[aussie]

So people compare two players (the only two players ever) because they have damn near identical records, 90% of people complain that it's an insult to Sobers to even be compared to a fat Saffer like Kallis, and somehow that counts as overrating Kallis? imo Kallis never gets more underrated than when compared with GS.

Not too me. Sobers was the far superior batsman really shouldn't be much a debate there. Plus Sobers peak as "all-rounder" lasted longer than Kallis. Really a no contest to be dead honest...

The stats make it seem closer than it is. But i do rate Kallis as one of the best ever regardless, just that he's nowhere near to Sir Gary..

 

[Jono]

I swear if this becomes a Kallis vs. Sobers argument!

 

[thierry henry]

I swear if this becomes a Kallis vs. Sobers argument!

Agreed

But aussie really shouldn't start me like that

*self control*