Peak Bumrah vs Peak Imran

[kyear2]

I know Imran tampered but Bumrah has so many advantages over him, the balls Bumrah bowls have a much more reinforced and refined seam for movement lasting much longer as both the Kookabura and Dukes were redesigned to swing and seam much longer and basically forever, every wicket is more sporting except maybe Edgbaston this series but Bumrah didn't play that. The Batting and Bowling output in Bumrah's games is closer to the games Sydney Barnes played than it is to the games Imran Khan played, I repeat, the Batting and Bowling output in Bumrah's games is closer to Sydney Francis Barnes's games, than Imran Khan's.

Imran used tampering to equalise the playing field, having the historically most batting friendly roadiest road wickets ever for home and a ball that would get old in five overs, I reckon Bumrah has enough advantages over Imran that the latter constructing a single advantage doesn't mean we should disqualify his record.

Firstly he didn't only tamper at home. But speaking of home, what about the umpiring?

 

[Johan]

Firstly he didn't only tamper at home. But speaking of home, what about the umpiring?

I know I don't say it for Javed as I consider him an overrated hack who deliberately eliminated a mode of dismissal at home, but, Biased umpiring did aid Imran but he was often a victim of it overseas too, At Headingley in 1982 I think Imran had dismissed Gower but wasn't given the dismissal, or at Port of Spain where Viv made a hundred Imran didn't get a clear LBW. That is two series victories robbed, look, I do agree Imran's 14 average is inflated but I don't want to pretend he's the only one with external advantages over Bumrah, Bumrah has plenty of external advantages over Imran and Imran has some over Bumrah.

Imran in general, just has such a good home record, you just have to give it to him considering in his peak he was performing away from home too.

 

[kyear2]

I know I don't say it for Javed as I consider him an overrated hack who deliberately eliminated a mode of dismissal at home, but, Biased umpiring did aid Imran but he was often a victim of it overseas too, At Headingley in 1982 I think Imran had dismissed Gower but wasn't given the dismissal, or at Port of Spain where Viv made a hundred Imran didn't get a clear LBW. That is two series victories robbed, look, I do agree Imran's 14 average is inflated but I don't want to pretend he's the only one with external advantages over Bumrah, Bumrah has plenty of external advantages over Imran and Imran has some over Bumrah.

Imran in general, just has such a good home record, you just have to give it to him considering in his peak he was performing away from home too.

Don't see how it applied to one and not the other though. One eliminated at least one and close to 2 types of dismissal at home. The other automatically got those as well.

So between the ridiculous levels of tampering and home umpiring, you don't see how there's an issue with regards to specifically his joke record?

And every single bowler, even today, gets bad decisions. Every single one.

 

[Johan]

Don't see how it applied to one and not the other though. One eliminated at least one and close to 2 types of dismissal at home. The other automatically got those as well.

So between the ridiculous levels of tampering and home umpiring, you don't see how there's an issue with regards to specifically his joke record?

And every single bowler, even today, gets bad decisions. Every single one.

so like you just don't count his home record?

 

[Randomfan]

I know Imran tampered but Bumrah has so many advantages over him, the balls Bumrah bowls have a much more reinforced and refined seam for movement lasting much longer as both the Kookabura and Dukes were redesigned to swing and seam much longer and basically forever, every wicket is more sporting except maybe Edgbaston this series but Bumrah didn't play that. The Batting and Bowling output in Bumrah's games is closer to the games Sydney Barnes played than it is to the games Imran Khan played, I repeat, the Batting and Bowling output in Bumrah's games is closer to Sydney Francis Barnes's games, than Imran Khan's.

Imran used tampering to equalise the playing field, having the historically most batting friendly roadiest road wickets ever for home and a ball that would get old in five overs, I reckon Bumrah has enough advantages over Imran that the latter constructing a single advantage doesn't mean we should disqualify his record.

All these kinds of round about arguement can be made for anyone from older era with new era. So Bumrah has a advanateg over IK due to bunch of intangibles and that's why his away avg is 19 vs IK away avg of 26 against non-minnows in career or 24 during his peak. So 5-7 points difference can be explained by all these intangibles you are listing.

Extrapolating it,

Marshall will average 13-15 away in current era.
Cummins will average 30-32 during IK's time.
Every single bowler during IK's time should have average adjusted 5-7 points down.

Very quickly it becomes silly.

No one takes IK's 100 wickets at avg of 12 at home at face value. On other hands, no one ignores his great away series. All bowlers in that era played away games and it's not hard to see who did what. Away series for all pacers had no ball tampering/biased umpiring issue. All pacers were on equal footing.

 

[kyear2]

I know I don't say it for Javed as I consider him an overrated hack who deliberately eliminated a mode of dismissal at home, but, Biased umpiring did aid Imran but he was often a victim of it overseas too, At Headingley in 1982 I think Imran had dismissed Gower but wasn't given the dismissal, or at Port of Spain where Viv made a hundred Imran didn't get a clear LBW. That is two series victories robbed, look, I do agree Imran's 14 average is inflated but I don't want to pretend he's the only one with external advantages over Bumrah, Bumrah has plenty of external advantages over Imran and Imran has some over Bumrah.

Imran in general, just has such a good home record, you just have to give it to him considering in his peak he was performing away from home too.

Oh, and Bumrah's advantages are legal btw.

 

[Johan]

All these kinds of round about arguement can be made for anyone from older era with new era. So Bumrah has a advanateg over IK due to bunch of intangibles and that's why his away avg is 19 vs IK away avg of 26 against non-minnows in career or 24 during his peak. So 5-7 points difference can be explained by all these intangibles you are listing.

Extrapolating it,

Marshall will average 13-15 away in current era.
Cummins will average 30-32 during IK's time.
Every single bowler during IK's time should have average adjusted 5-7 points down.

Very quickly it becomes silly.

No one takes IK's 100 wickets at avg of 12 at home at face value. On other hands, no one ignores his great away series. All bowlers in that era played away games and it's not hard to see who did what. Away series for all pacers had no ball tampering/biased umpiring issue. All pacers were on equal footing.

You're going on a tangent when it comes to era arguments. I generally think averages would be 1-2 points difference at most.

Bumrah averages 21 away from home, Imran averages 22 at his peak, we are discussing his peak. Cummins won't sverage 30-32 that's ridiculous but I do think him and Rabada will get a good point or couple of boost to their averages playing in other eras, minus the 1950s.

 

[Johan]

Oh, and Bumrah's advantages are legal btw.

doesn't mean it's not an advantage that affects their statistics.

 

[kyear2]

so like you just don't count his home record?

With many pinches of salt, but while it can't be ignored, it shouldn't be glorified either.

But yeah, primarily but not exclusively by his away record.

 

[Johan]

With many pinches of salt, but while it can't be ignored, it shouldn't be glorified either.

But yeah, primarily but not exclusively by his away record.

How is he ATG on just away record considering you don't give him any cutoffs

 

[Randomfan]

so like you just don't count his home record?

You're going on a tangent when it comes to era arguments. I generally think averages would be 1-2 points difference at most.

Bumrah averages 21 away from home, Imran averages 22 at his peak, we are discussing his peak. Cummins won't sverage 30-32 that's ridiculous but I do think him and Rabada will get a good point or couple of boost to their averages playing in other eras, minus the 1950s.

Count non-minnows and peak for both.

Or

Count simply their career away for both.


List # of wickets, Avg etc for both to see quality and amount combination for both.

Otherwise , it's a misleading compariso and serves no purpose. We can either compare career or peak.

IK, in filter you provided, averages 24 away from home during his peak. His career away average is 26-27 against non-minnows. I would not want to pick any filter dates for IK becasue I see bunch of different filters getting used based on who wants to argue what. Pick one and stick to that. Once you have exact cut off dates, we can try to compare with his peer group and Bumrah to make sense of IK's numbers.

 

[Johan]

Count non-minnows and peak for both.

Or

Count simply their career away for both.


List # of wickets, Avg etc for both to see quality and amount combination for both.

Otherwise , it's a misleading compariso and serves no purpose. We can either compare career or peak.

IK, in filter you provided, averages 24 away from home during his peak. His career away average is 26-27 against non-minnows. I would not want to pick any filter dates for IK becasue I see bunch of different filters getting used based on who wants to argue what. Pick one and stick to that. Once you have exact cut off dates, we can try to compare with his peer group and Bumrah to make sense of IK's numbers.

His awag average in my filter was 22.

You can have your own filter for what you consider Bumrah's peak.

 

[Randomfan]

so like you just don't count his home record?

It can't be used to glorify. It's still part of his wickets tally.

 

[Randomfan]

His awag average in my filter was 22.

You can have your own filter for what you consider Bumrah's peak.

I want to see exact period you are getting 22 avg agains non-minnows. Once you provide that, we can transparently see volume and quality of any period and do apple to apple comparison. Once you provide dates, please stick to it. For IK, I see a bunch of different dates based on argument going at that time. There has to be a certain period which should work all the time in comparison, be it peak or a big portion of career.

Please provide the period with exact dates you want to use for IK.

 

[kyear2]

doesn't mean it's not an advantage that affects their statistics.

But all are rated in comparison to their peers and no advantages that Bumrah is unique to Imran alone

 

[centurymaker]

I know I don't say it for Javed as I consider him an overrated hack who deliberately eliminated a mode of dismissal at home, but, Biased umpiring did aid Imran but he was often a victim of it overseas too, At Headingley in 1982 I think Imran had dismissed Gower but wasn't given the dismissal, or at Port of Spain where Viv made a hundred Imran didn't get a clear LBW.

How tf do we even take anything seriously from pre 1972? Constant pad play (just thurst your pad out and you can't be LBW).. and before that, the ball had to literally 'pitch' in line with the wickets in order to be LBW.

Batting was a lot easier pre 1935 as well as pre 1972. So all those batters who averaged 57,58,59,60 etc, they could hardly get out LBW, unless they made a big blunder. Their actual averages should be a lot less.

 

[centurymaker]

Dukes were redesigned to swing and seam much longer and basically forever, every wicket is more sporting except maybe Edgbaston this series but Bumrah didn't play that.

Haha very funny. Leeds pitch was a highway.

Runs in that match = 1672
Wickets = 35
Batting average : 47.77

And these dukes balls are crap, they barely swing and also lose their seam 20 or so overs. You are overplaying the advantages.

Imran – 22.81
Other bowlers in his games – 34.32

Bumrah – 19.48
Other bowlers in his games – 28.45

Batting averages in their games
Imran – 30.95
Bumrah – 26.05

Bumrah played on ridiculous spinning decks at home where avgs were low because of spin. So only need to look at other pace bowlers in those tests. Because dustbowls are bringing the batting and bowling avgs down.

 

[subshakerz]

Bumrah played on ridiculous spinning decks at home where avgs were low because of spin. So only need to look at other pace bowlers in those tests. Because dustbowls are bringing the batting and bowling avgs down.

Bumrah is playing in probably the easiest era to get bats out in cricket history.

 

[subshakerz]

I know I don't say it for Javed as I consider him an overrated hack who deliberately eliminated a mode of dismissal at home, but, Biased umpiring did aid Imran but he was often a victim of it overseas too, At Headingley in 1982 I think Imran had dismissed Gower but wasn't given the dismissal, or at Port of Spain where Viv made a hundred Imran didn't get a clear LBW. That is two series victories robbed, look, I do agree Imran's 14 average is inflated but I don't want to pretend he's the only one with external advantages over Bumrah, Bumrah has plenty of external advantages over Imran and Imran has some over Bumrah.

Imran in general, just has such a good home record, you just have to give it to him considering in his peak he was performing away from home too.

I think you may discover that Kyears approach towards Imran is fundamentally uncharitable.

 

[subshakerz]

I know Imran tampered but Bumrah has so many advantages over him, the balls Bumrah bowls have a much more reinforced and refined seam for movement lasting much longer as both the Kookabura and Dukes were redesigned to swing and seam much longer and basically forever, every wicket is more sporting except maybe Edgbaston this series but Bumrah didn't play that. The Batting and Bowling output in Bumrah's games is closer to the games Sydney Barnes played than it is to the games Imran Khan played, I repeat, the Batting and Bowling output in Bumrah's games is closer to Sydney Francis Barnes's games, than Imran Khan's.

Imran used tampering to equalise the playing field, having the historically most batting friendly roadiest road wickets ever for home and a ball that would get old in five overs, I reckon Bumrah has enough advantages over Imran that the latter constructing a single advantage doesn't mean we should disqualify his record.

This is reasonable. Bumrah has a booster record too.