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*Official* West Indies in New Zealand - Nov/Dec 2020

Beamer

International Vice-Captain
they need to get it fuller. the length that's a massive overpitching in australia is the length you get late hoop in nz with the kookaburra.

though with the old ball you're probably best off trying a bouncer barrage.
I think they tried full and Kane and Latham looked so solid that they stopped. That's not brave enough but I feel it's what happened.

I'm also not convinced it did THAT much even when it was full tbh. I certainly don't agree that 240 means NZ have won already. But I do agree it is not a 240/2 wicket and that they need to be more consistently full.
 

Moss

International Vice-Captain
Wouldn’t go as far as to say a first innings total of 240 would be a winning score. In the 2nd test when India visited in Feb (think it was Christchurch, but was fairly bowler friendly throughout) they did put up 240 batting first and were in the drivers seat for a while, but only managed a slender lead and got bundled out cheaply in the second dig.

On that occasion they paid for their top and middle order getting starts and not making it count. while NZ have pretty much passed that hurdle for now the batting to follow is a bit short on form (Nicholls, though he’s played well in the lead up) and experience (Blundell, Mitchell) so will be a test for them to turn this into a bat-Windies-out-of-the-game score, if the Kane/Ross partnership doesn’t last long.
 

Beamer

International Vice-Captain
Wouldn’t go as far as to say a first innings total of 240 would be a winning score. In the 2nd test when India visited in Feb (think it was Christchurch, but was fairly bowler friendly throughout) they did put up 240 batting first and were in the drivers seat for a while, but only managed a slender lead and got bundled out cheaply in the second dig.

On that occasion they paid for their top and middle order getting starts and not making it count. while NZ have pretty much passed that hurdle for now the batting to follow is a bit short on form (Nicholls, though he’s played well in the lead up) and experience (Blundell, Mitchell) so will be a test for them to turn this into a bat-Windies-out-of-the-game score, if the Kane/Ross partnership doesn’t last long.
I definitely think it's looking good for NZ. Regardless of the pitch, our batting is poor, your bowling is good. Not looking like a good combo.

Incidentally, I just did some quick statsguru work. Roach, Gabriel and Holder average 49 per wicket with the Kookaburra ball. With the Dukes ball, they average 27 per wicket. There is a definite problem there as it's not a small sample size.
 

England First

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Is Kane the most composed sportsman in the world currently? Mayweather, when active, is my first immediate answer, but I'm struggling out-with that...
I was comparing him to Rahul Dravid while watching him today. Unbelievable straight technique and defence.
Who’s got the better defensive game? Williamson or Dravid?
 

Arachnodouche

International Captain
I think they tried full and Kane and Latham looked so solid that they stopped. That's not brave enough but I feel it's what happened.

I'm also not convinced it did THAT much even when it was full tbh. I certainly don't agree that 240 means NZ have won already. But I do agree it is not a 240/2 wicket and that they need to be more consistently full.
Yeah, the one hour spell I watched, Gabriel and Joseph bowled full almost exclusively but nothing happened. If anything they could've pulled it back a tad, but doubt it would've made much difference. KW and Latham were superb.
 

Moss

International Vice-Captain
I was comparing him to Rahul Dravid while watching him today. Unbelievable straight technique and defence.
Who’s got the better defensive game? Williamson or Dravid?
Think I’ll go with RSD on this one, amazing as Williamson is. Some of his knocks in difficult batting conditions - Kingston 2006, Leeds 2002, most of the 2011 tour to England- well, he just seemed to be carrying the flag for defensive batting in the 2000s. (Which reminds me, just over 10 years since Kane made his test debut at Ahmedabad, seems like only yesterday. Remember that game so well.)

Here’s a piece on the Kingston test (sorry for the diversion):
 

veganbob

U19 Captain
I'd rate them about equal overall but defensively Dravid was much harder to break down than Kane imo. Especially vs fast bowlers early on- always feel an inform kane is easier to dismiss than in form David was.
 

nzfan

International Vice-Captain
Good day's play yesterday. There was a bit in it with the new ball but credit to Latham and Williamson for batting the way they did. As for whether WI bowlers were a touch short, hard to tell. They bowled full but there was no massive swing once the ball got a bit old so had to pull back the length to keep runs under check. I think they did a reasonable job. There were few that beat the bat and on a good day they may turn out to be nicks. I don't think the bowlers were ill disciplined, the credit should be given to the batters for the shot selection. The batters weren't hurried, didn't produce shots for the sake of it and played to the merit of the ball. Latham left the ball on length real well, so crucial playing under these conditions. The balls on the stumps nipping in or away are the most dangerous when you're letting go most of the length balls out side the 4th stump. Latham negate those real well. Kane is just Kane.. no point even talking about him. He has such soft hands and adapts to conditions most of the times. He sees the ball early, gets into really good position and makes very good decisions. When he does play some that he shouldn't be he plays it soft. Simple for him, hard for others.

As for Will Young, credit is due to Gabriel. He bowled a beauty previous ball, nipping away and the next one was fuller and swung just that enough really late. It's not always batsman is at fault when they get out, the bowlers are there to bowl and take wickets. They are well paid and opening bowling for their country for a reason.

When it comes to NZ Bowlers it will be a different story. We have bowlers that prefer to bowl differently and from different angles. Southee bowls close to the stumps, fuller looks to take the ball away from right handers most of the times. Boult uses the crease the best, hoops both sides with the new ball and when the ball is older he bowls slight wobble seam and moves it off the deck from back of a length. Wagner bowls heavy length and heavy balls for long periods of time. Simple game plan but effective. If that doesn't work he bowls skiddy short stuff and if the pitch has worn a bit by then the batters will be in two minds, whether to let go or play horizontal bat shots. Either way they can't sustain for long. Kyle can bowl fuller or shorter and his fuller balls also hits stickers. The batters have steep bounce to counter playing Jamieson. If all these bowlers are miser then batsman have to score somewhere so they take a bit of risk here and there. If it's not their day then things can go quite wrong and wickets fall in clutters. It's a full unit that works in tandem rather than reliance on a single bowlers particularly at home. The pitches always have something in it for the pacers at home anyways and it's all about working as a team.

NZ have this knack of not losing wickets in clutters. That's the worse thing sitting in the shed waiting to bat. Even if there is a partnership of say 40-50 runs for a wicket and some overs eaten up right after a wicket falls the bloke coming in next can be a bit more confident. If there 2-3 wickets go back to back, invariably the rest seem to follow suit. Big day coming up for WI batting. Our boys will post over 400 runs for sure and if all goes well probably 500 as well. If they get 500 then only one team can win from then on.
 
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nzfan

International Vice-Captain
Think I’ll go with RSD on this one, amazing as Williamson is. Some of his knocks in difficult batting conditions - Kingston 2006, Leeds 2002, most of the 2011 tour to England- well, he just seemed to be carrying the flag for defensive batting in the 2000s. (Which reminds me, just over 10 years since Kane made his test debut at Ahmedabad, seems like only yesterday. Remember that game so well.)

Here’s a piece on the Kingston test (sorry for the diversion):
I was amazed at how good Rahul Dravid was at Basin on an unplayable pitch in 2002-03 season particularly vs Bond. He left anything that wasn't full with ease and anything pitched up was punished with as straight bat as possible. Despite being able to play all shots around the ground he only played the shots that merited to be hit. That was an amazing display of test batsmanship. I can never forget that knock for the sheer application on a first day pitch. Probably one of the very best knocks and never quite talked about as India lost by a canter from memory. Off all the bowlers I vividly remember he got out to Sytris or Astle, poled I think. Don't think anyone got reasonable runs in that test match, maybe Mark Richardson did. Can't quite say I have watched a better knock than that live. I've watch lots of test matches pretty much all over the world but that knock stands out.
 

Moss

International Vice-Captain
I was amazed at how good Rahul Dravid was at Basin on an unplayable pitch in 2002-03 season particularly vs Bond. He left anything that wasn't full with ease and anything pitched up was punished with as straight bat as possible. Despite being able to play all shots around the ground he only played the shots that merited to be hit. That was an amazing display of test batsmanship. I can never forget that knock for the sheer application on a first day pitch. Probably one of the very best knocks and never quite talked about as India lost by a canter from memory. Off all the bowlers I vividly remember he got out to Sytris or Astle, poled I think. Don't think anyone got reasonable runs in that test match, maybe Mark Richardson did. Can't quite say I have watched a better knock than that live. I've watch lots of test matches pretty much all over the world but that knock stands out.
Oh yes how could I forget. In fact Richardson outscored him with 89 which was also a great forgotten knock. The only two players who had a clue really, though I think Tendulkar did manage a half century in one innings.
 

nzfan

International Vice-Captain
this hasn't been the case at all recently. i can't remember his last whimsical or eccentric post, and i say that as one of the 2-3 people who back him every year in our life or death off topic popularity contest because peak kippax is the best poster on this forum and a very kind man. it's just been a tiresome "south africans raise their kids great, here are videos of people who are not devon conway or wellingtonian being bad at cricket" agenda driven crusade blocky would be proud of.

it's all very well being the prophet when you're attacking the nzc aristocracy. when you turn your forks on your fellow peasants you're not funny, you're just a tosser. by the sounds of it nzfan does a lot for cricket in his community and he's a good poster who makes insightful points within the essays of extreme optimism 2007 you and i could have made.

nzfan (and straw man before him) is not the enemy and kippax knows that, he's just a target kippax can reach directly for catty internet points, which is beneath a man of his quality tbh.
I wouldn't care the least to be honest. It's his opinion and it's just an opinion. He could call me **** I wouldn't care. I feel he reckons I'm involved in signing up some players for domestic sides that in his opinion aren't good enough. I'm not that powerful, yes I know most of the players in NZ and few from outside of NZ which does create some soft corner for the players knowing fully well how much they sacrifice to play this sport to entertain us. It takes a lot of hard work for our boys to get to the first class stage. It's not like in India or Australia or England where they get looked after and get paid real well right from the time they start representing rep cricket. Here the lads have to put in everything from their own resource and for limited number of contracts at next level. We have limited number of local teams and what they make from playing for local sides is not sufficient to set them up for life. Far easier to sit in front of the PC and criticize not knowing how much sacrifice goes behind getting anywhere here in NZ. The system only really helps if the players have already made good strides on their own and at their own cost. In fact our age group representative players don't get paid, still they have to pay some of it to play for the age group domestic sides. I can't think of anything of this sort for other test playing nations.

Besides why wouldn't I be optimistic, I'd rather be optimistic than not and at this point in time when the Black Caps are at their best. We have so many good players in the fringes and they can't a game at the moment. Why wouldn't I be optimistic? When did we ever make two world cup finals in a row before? When have we ever been so solid at home and also win/draw some series overseas with consistency (the Aussie challenge apart). If you are a black caps supporter and are not optimistic then I believe you have to get a depression test :p

I don't have to post here, never for one to post on public forums but I quite like the bunch here. Lot of them are very knowledgeable. I can't discuss cricket at work, no one really cares. Wifey can't be bothered either, in fact she thinks this is the most stupid game ever. I have to express my thoughts somewhere unless I kick my current job and get into cricket journalism which probably is too late considering my age.
 
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straw man

Hall of Fame Member
Like the commentators said, WI bowled a lot better after tea yesterday.

Always looked likely against Taylor, who's played the sort of innings we now expect from him; mixture of plays and misses with suspect footwork and smashing cut shots and forceful straight drives.

Yus Kaneh.
 

The Hutt Rec

International Vice-Captain
Important innings for Nicholls, I reckon ... he's got some form on the board, a 50 would be nice. Conditions suit his fighting style of play, as well.
 

thierry henry

International Coach
Taylor has had such an up and down career in terms of the perceived quality of his batsmanship, while not actually being that up and down in terms of performance.

However I think it's fair to say that at this point (and probably for the last 2 or 3 years) I don't really trust his technique against good test bowling anymore and am pretty sure it's only downhill from here...which is different from saying he'll never make runs.
 

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