*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[FaaipDeOiad]

See I understand that, and I'm not discarding those facts. Those are true, but I think at the same time you have you to look at other factors too.

Firstly, as I've pointed out, India in 1999/2000 were rubbish. Gandhi, Kanitikar, MSK Prasad and R Vijay Bharadwaj and Ramesh (He wasn't too bad) were hardly players to fear. Even if Warne was in a horrid period of his career, he should have averaged less against a team with these players. Added on to that Laxman was hardly as good as he became from 2001 onwards (partly because he had to open) and Dravid hasn't been that good against Warne anyway. That leaves Tendulkar and Ganguly.

No denying that. Warne should have done better against that team, but he was shockingly out of form and unfit, and that accounts for part of his struggles in my opinion. Warne was reasonably poor through all of the 16 test victories Australia had in fact.

Just to expand a bit, between his 98 injury and the 2001 India tour, these were his series averages:

10 @ 54.00 vs India
2 @ 55.00 vs England
2 @ 134.00 vs West Indies
8 @ 14.28 vs Sri Lanka
6 @ 22.83 vs Zimbabwe
12 @ 30.83 vs Pakistan
8 @ 41.88 vs India
15 @ 27.60 vs New Zealand
10 @ 50.50 vs India

He came back strongly against England in the 2001 Ashes, and since then has only had one bad series, where he took 6 @ 71 against New Zealand. In this period, he averaged above 25 seven times out of nine, and one of the lower ones was against Zimbabwe. Since he really "came back" against Pakistan in 2002, he's only averaged above 25 in a series twice. One was when he took 10 @ 28 in 2 tests against Sri Lanka at home, and the other was in the next series where he took 14 @ 30.07 in 3 against India. Neither are shocking performances.

So, it's not simply an issue of Warne struggling against India. Warne's played 5 series against India, and 3 of them were in that period where he was plagued by injuries, out of form, even got dropped from the side and many people considered he'd never be back to his best. Aside from that period, he's got one shocking debut series against India, and one pass-mark tour.

Secondly, in 2004 you mentioned Warne returning after not playing much cricket. Yet he absolutely dominated Sri Lanka at least 3-4 months earlier in his first test series after the drug ban. If he can destroy SL, he must have been in some form surely? They're no India but they're not exactly bunnies against spin.

Not denying that either. I don't think the 2004 tour needs much of an excuse actually. Warne played the best players of spin in the world at full strength, missed the best pitch for spin bowling in the series, was coming off relatively little cricket post-drugs ban and averaged 30. Nothing at all wrong with that. However, had he toured India right now instead of a year ago, I'd have higher expectations. That was my point, not that the tour was irrelevant.

Anyway, there's no doubt India are by far the best players of spin in the world, particularly leg spin. There's also no doubt that Warne has a bit of a mental problem against India. For example, the one thing you can rely on Warne for all the time is accuracy. He's quite simply the most accurate wristspinner you're ever going to see, and puts almost everything on a dime, and that is the key to most of his success. Watch him in India in 2001, and he's bowling half-trackers and full tosses like it's going out of style. He looks demoralised, unfit, and simply a shadow of the bowler he usually is. Part of it was his form and confidence at the time, but he also has a problem playing against India. Maybe his decent 2004 tour will have overcome that, but it's fairly unlikely he'll play India again unfortunately, as I think he's likely to call it a day after the next Ashes series.

 

[Sanz]

Not denying that either. I don't think the 2004 tour needs much of an excuse actually. Warne played the best players of spin in the world at full strength, missed the best pitch for spin bowling in the series, was coming off relatively little cricket post-drugs ban and averaged 30. Nothing at all wrong with that. However, had he toured India right now instead of a year ago, I'd have higher expectations. That was my point, not that the tour was irrelevant.

Actually Warnie didn't have to face SRT for the most part, also if he was coming off little cricket, so were the Indians and it showed the way they played the series.

 

[honestbharani]

Being a leggie and a huge fan of the art, I HAVE to defend Warne.

Wanre does throw it up. Warne does bowl balls above the batsman's eye. The thing which is different for Warne than other leggies is his line. While most pitch off stump and away, Warne pitches on the leg and middle. It means that despite lofting the balls, the line is so vicious that the batsmen do not go for the attack. Add to that the control of Warne. Some thing which always amazes me.

Regarding the negative line of Warne, it is not negative as he doesnt bowl balls which batsmen cannot hit. Sidhu and Tendulkar succeeded against that very same line. It is far from it. It is a very attacking line in fact. Leg spin is an attacking art and not a defensive one like most spinning arts are. The line of Warne makes it much more attacking. Against other leggies, if you miss the ball, it goes to the keeper. Against Warne, you can be bowled or lbw.

Try bowling the normal leg spinner's line and Warne's line. Warne's line will put the batsmen much more in the spot. But that line also means that you have very little room for error. A small lack in accuracy would mean a lollipop ball usually to be despatched for four. Only the super accurate can bowl the line Warne bowls - making leg spin more attacking than it is usually.

HOnestly speaking, I don't think he is throwing them up these days and anyways, his field setting is slightly on the defensive side, if you ask me. Maybe it is Ponting's influence, though.

 

[honestbharani]

Wow you are a leggie as well! Join the LSU!!!!!

Thread post count already 110 by the way.

I bowl leg spin on those rare occassions I do bowl. And I turn them more than our main spinners. It is just that I have no real variety to speak of, and after 3 decent overs, the good batters easily get on top of me. My flighted deliveries invariably end up beyond the boundary, no matter if I pitch it on off, middle,leg or even if I don't pitch it at all.

 

[honestbharani]

And what would the logic be for Murali's poor record in India.

The fact that he hasn't come here since 1997?


Seriously, I think he has moved light years ahead as a bowler from what he was in 97, when he was basically a one trick pony.

 

[Pratters]

I bowl leg spin on those rare occassions I do bowl. And I turn them more than our main spinners. It is just that I have no real variety to speak of, and after 3 decent overs, the good batters easily get on top of me. My flighted deliveries invariably end up beyond the boundary, no matter if I pitch it on off, middle,leg or even if I don't pitch it at all.

Shows you leg spin is such a difficult art. In off spin you can ball safe balls but as a leg spinner if you do not have enough control, the batsmen can punish is.

One of the most attacking forms of bowling.

Qadir said - you are a true leg spinner if you can bowl all day and then bowl some more or some thing on those lines - wohi asli leg spinner (thats the real leg spinner).

You have to have that zeal in you.

 

[Pratters]

HOnestly speaking, I don't think he is throwing them up these days and anyways, his field setting is slightly on the defensive side, if you ask me. Maybe it is Ponting's influence, though.

I disagree with the first part. You dont throw up every ball. But whatever.

On the field placing - I have noticed that as well and I too believe it has to do with Ponting's conservative approach as a captain.

 

[honestbharani]

Shows you leg spin is such a difficult art. In off spin you can ball safe balls but as a leg spinner if you do not have enough control, the batsmen can punish is.

One of the most attacking forms of bowling.

Qadir said - you are a true leg spinner if you can bowl all day and then bowl some more or some thing on those lines - wohi asli leg spinner (thats the real leg spinner).

You have to have that zeal in you.

That is why I am a wicket keeper. My leg spin is a surprise option.. I am asked to bowl when nothing else has worked, or when my captain wants to keep.

 

[aussie]

Very good idea by CW members to do this, my view is that on Current form Warne is better & thoroughout their respective career's Warne seems to be more effective on pitches that dont turn that much, but Murali is younnger & it will be interesting to see how he bowls when he reaches Warne's age, but for now Warne it would be fair to say he has the edge over Murali...

 

[nightprowler10]

I agree with the above post. Warne seems to have the edge, atm. Though I can't comment much on Murali as I haven't seen him bowl that much.

Its good to see CW allowed this debate to go on like this. Pity, other forums won't.

 

[luckyeddie]

I agree with the above post. Warne seems to have the edge, atm. Though I can't comment much on Murali as I haven't seen him bowl that much.

Its good to see CW allowed this debate to go on like this. Pity, other forums won't.

I'm pleasantly surprised that it's been conducted as civilly as it has, going on past experiences. Long may it continue.

 

[Pratters]

In one dayers:

Warne
Murali

(6 ball overs)       Mat    O       R   W   BB1    BB2     Ave  Econ    SR 4w 5w

overall              194 1773.4  7541 293  5/33   4/19   25.73  4.25  36.3 12  1
                     255 2314.3  8777 392  7/30   5/9    22.39  3.79  35.4 10  8

for Asia XI            0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       4   33     138   6  3/59   1/8    23.00  4.18  33.0  0  0
for Australia        193 1766.4  7514 291  5/33   4/19   25.82  4.25  36.4 12  1
                       0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
for ICC World XI       1    7      27   2  2/27    -     13.50  3.85  21.0  0  0
                       3   30     122   5  2/38   2/41   24.40  4.06  36.0  0  0
for Sri Lanka          0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                     248 2251.3  8517 381  7/30   5/9    22.35  3.78  35.4 10  8

v Africa XI            0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       3   23      79   3  1/8    1/26   26.33  3.43  46.0  0  0
v Asia XI              1    7      27   2  2/27    -     13.50  3.85  21.0  0  0
                       0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
v Australia            0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                      25  238.2   975  38  4/27   3/26   25.65  4.09  37.6  1  0
v Bangladesh           2   20      51   2  1/18   1/33   25.50  2.55  60.0  0  0
                      10   96.4   295  18  4/23   3/24   16.38  3.05  32.2  1  0
v Canada               0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       1    2.4     3   1  1/3     -      3.00  1.12  16.0  0  0
v England             18  168.4   729  22  3/16   3/39   33.13  4.32  46.0  0  0
                      13  125.5   412  22  5/34   4/29   18.72  3.27  34.3  1  1
v ICC World XI         0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       1   10      59   3  3/59    -     19.66  5.90  20.0  0  0
v India               18  162.2   844  15  3/38   2/36   56.26  5.19  64.9  0  0
                      44  382.3  1560  55  7/30   3/6    28.36  4.07  41.7  0  1
v Kenya                3   22      76   3  1/4    1/25   25.33  3.45  44.0  0  0
                       5   39.5   113  13  4/18   4/28    8.69  2.83  18.3  2  0
v Netherlands          0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       1    5.3    15   4  4/15    -      3.75  2.72   8.2  1  0
v New Zealand         27  242.4   943  49  4/19   4/25   19.24  3.88  29.7  3  0
                      27  256     923  47  5/9    5/30   19.63  3.60  32.6  0  2
v Pakistan            22  208.1   879  37  4/33   4/37   23.75  4.22  33.7  3  0
                      52  467.5  1908  77  5/23   5/23   24.77  4.07  36.4  0  2
v South Africa        45  410.4  1718  60  4/29   4/36   28.63  4.18  41.0  3  0
                      25  229.3   871  37  5/44   4/35   23.54  3.79  37.2  1  1
v Scotland             1   10      39   3  3/39    -     13.00  3.90  20.0  0  0
                       0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
v Sri Lanka           18  166     746  29  3/20   3/29   25.72  4.49  34.3  0  0
                       0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
v U.A.E.               0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       1   10      21   3  3/21    -      7.00  2.10  20.0  0  0
v West Indies         27  250.4  1045  50  5/33   4/36   20.90  4.16  30.0  2  1
                      23  214.3   799  30  3/17   3/22   26.63  3.72  42.9  0  0
v Zimbabwe            12  105.3   444  21  4/34   2/21   21.14  4.20  30.1  1  0
                      24  212.2   744  41  5/23   4/16   18.14  3.50  31.0  3  1

in Australia          85  791.5  3297 136  5/33   4/19   24.24  4.16  34.9  5  1
                      20  183.4   786  31  4/27   3/34   25.35  4.27  35.5  1  0
in Bangladesh          0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       6   55     212   6  3/31   1/35   35.33  3.85  55.0  0  0
in England            18  168.2   722  31  4/29   4/33   23.29  4.28  32.5  2  0
                       8   73     276  12  5/34   3/25   23.00  3.78  36.5  0  1
in India              15  145.3   646  21  4/34   4/36   30.76  4.43  41.5  2  0
                      21  187.2   821  25  3/35   3/40   32.84  4.38  44.9  0  0
in Kenya               5   39     150   4  1/4    1/20   37.50  3.84  58.5  0  0
                       6   60     202  14  4/18   4/28   14.42  3.36  25.7  3  0
in Morocco             0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       4   36     112   5  2/35   1/12   22.40  3.11  43.2  0  0
in New Zealand        11   99     374  16  3/50   2/18   23.37  3.77  37.1  0  0
                      10   94.5   388  17  5/30   2/23   22.82  4.09  33.4  0  1
in Pakistan            7   68.2   296   6  4/40   1/29   49.33  4.33  68.3  1  0
                       9   83.1   327  12  3/31   2/37   27.25  3.93  41.5  0  0
in South Africa       20  176.1   809  29  4/36   3/31   27.89  4.59  36.4  1  0
                      28  254.3   991  39  5/23   3/25   25.41  3.89  39.1  0  1
in Sri Lanka          11   88.2   383  16  3/29   2/27   23.93  4.33  33.1  0  0
                      81  730.5  2652 120  5/23   5/44   22.10  3.62  36.5  3  2
in Singapore           0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       4   28     126   6  2/25   2/42   21.00  4.50  28.0  0  0
in U.A.E.              8   76     324  13  4/34   3/29   24.92  4.26  35.0  1  0
                      45  416.3  1454  82  7/30   5/9    17.73  3.49  30.4  1  2
in West Indies        11  102.1   458  17  3/28   3/35   26.94  4.48  36.0  0  0
                       5   46     191   6  3/17   2/37   31.83  4.15  46.0  0  0
in Zimbabwe            3   19      82   4  2/40   2/42   20.50  4.31  28.5  0  0
                       8   65.4   239  17  5/23   4/16   14.05  3.63  23.1  2  1

in Africa             28  234.1  1041  37  4/36   3/31   28.13  4.44  37.9  1  0
                      46  416.1  1544  75  5/23   5/23   20.58  3.71  33.2  5  2
in Americas           11  102.1   458  17  3/28   3/35   26.94  4.48  36.0  0  0
                       5   46     191   6  3/17   2/37   31.83  4.15  46.0  0  0
in Asia               41  378.1  1649  56  4/34   4/34   29.44  4.36  40.5  4  0
                     166 1500.5  5592 251  7/30   5/9    22.27  3.72  35.8  4  4
in Europe             18  168.2   722  31  4/29   4/33   23.29  4.28  32.5  2  0
                       8   73     276  12  5/34   3/25   23.00  3.78  36.5  0  1
in Oceania            96  890.5  3671 152  5/33   4/19   24.15  4.12  35.1  5  1
                      30  278.3  1174  48  5/30   4/27   24.45  4.21  34.8  1  1

home                  84  784.5  3270 134  5/33   4/19   24.40  4.16  35.1  5  1
                      81  730.5  2652 120  5/23   5/44   22.10  3.62  36.5  3  2
away                  66  583.2  2555  84  4/36   3/28   30.41  4.38  41.6  1  0
                      70  644.2  2583 111  5/23   5/30   23.27  4.00  34.8  5  3
neutral               44  405.3  1716  75  4/29   4/33   22.88  4.23  32.4  6  0
                     104  939.2  3542 161  7/30   5/9    22.00  3.77  35.0  2  3

1993                   5   40     127  11  4/19   4/25   11.54  3.17  21.8  2  0
                       9   70     292   8  2/6    2/36   36.50  4.17  52.5  0  0
1994                  29  273.2  1045  50  4/34   4/36   20.90  3.82  32.8  3  0
                      10   89     364   9  2/23   2/40   40.44  4.08  59.3  0  0
1995                  12  115.2   497  13  2/18   2/21   38.23  4.30  53.2  0  0
                      14  137.2   583  18  4/23   3/31   32.38  4.24  45.7  1  0
1996                  16  151.5   583  36  5/33   4/34   16.19  3.83  25.3  3  1
                      24  210.5   863  36  4/18   4/35   23.97  4.09  35.1  2  0
1997                  18  169.3   749  23  4/37   3/48   32.56  4.41  44.2  1  0
                      26  237.5  1041  36  3/38   3/40   28.91  4.37  39.6  0  0
1998                  16  149.3   703  17  3/52   2/19   41.35  4.70  52.7  0  0
                      18  169.5   730  32  5/23   5/34   22.81  4.29  31.8  0  2
1999                  37  329.1  1443  62  4/29   4/33   23.27  4.38  31.8  2  0
                      28  249.1   984  38  4/16   3/22   25.89  3.94  39.3  1  0
2000                  16  143     563  18  3/50   2/30   31.27  3.93  47.6  0  0
                      21  200.1   680  34  7/30   5/44   20.00  3.39  35.3  0  2
2001                  18  167.5   831  32  4/48   3/38   25.96  4.95  31.4  1  0
                      33  308.3  1019  56  5/30   4/29   18.19  3.30  33.0  2  1
2002                  24  207.1   887  26  2/39   2/42   34.11  4.28  47.8  0  0
                      17  129.3   360  30  5/9    4/15   12.00  2.77  25.9  1  1
2003                   2   20      86   3  2/58   1/28   28.66  4.30  40.0  0  0
                      24  218.2   731  46  5/23   4/27   15.89  3.34  28.4  2  1
2005                   1    7      27   2  2/27    -     13.50  3.85  21.0  0  0
                      18  169.2   674  26  3/33   3/35   25.92  3.98  39.0  0  0
2004                   0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                      13  124.4   456  23  5/23   4/32   19.82  3.65  32.5  1  1

season 1992/93         1   10      40   2  2/40    -     20.00  4.00  30.0  0  0
                       0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
season 1993            0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       4   24      93   4  2/6    1/21   23.25  3.87  36.0  0  0
season 1993/94        21  188     689  42  4/19   4/25   16.40  3.66  26.8  4  0
                       7   66     278   7  2/36   2/40   39.71  4.21  56.5  0  0
season 1994            3   28     109   7  3/29   2/27   15.57  3.89  24.0  0  0
                       3   22     110   2  1/21   1/36   55.00  5.00  66.0  0  0
season 1994/95        18  176.3   715  21  4/40   2/18   34.04  4.05  50.4  1  0
                      11  105.2   422  12  4/23   2/23   35.16  4.00  52.6  1  0
season 1995/96        16  148.4   580  27  4/34   4/36   21.48  3.90  33.0  2  0
                      21  187.1   777  27  3/31   2/25   28.77  4.15  41.5  0  0
season 1996            0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       4   37     147   4  2/41   1/28   36.75  3.97  55.5  0  0
season 1996/97        14  129.5   597  29  5/33   4/37   20.58  4.59  26.8  2  1
                      14  134.4   554  32  4/18   4/35   17.31  4.11  25.2  2  0
season 1997            3   29     129   1  1/39    -    129.00  4.44 174.0  0  0
                      13  125.5   543  13  3/40   2/29   41.76  4.31  58.0  0  0
season 1997/98        20  189.3   845  21  3/48   3/52   40.23  4.45  54.1  0  0
                      14  120.5   550  22  5/23   3/29   25.00  4.55  32.9  0  1
season 1998            0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       8   76     320  12  5/34   2/48   26.66  4.21  38.0  0  1
season 1998/99        19  175.5   786  32  3/16   3/28   24.56  4.47  32.9  0  0
                      11   96.4   428  16  3/31   3/34   26.75  4.42  36.2  0  0
season 1999           15  134.2   575  26  4/29   4/33   22.11  4.28  31.0  2  0
                      10   92     355  12  3/25   3/50   29.58  3.85  46.0  0  0
season 1999/00        16  132     544  20  3/50   2/30   27.20  4.12  39.6  0  0
                      12  103.4   385  20  4/16   3/22   19.25  3.71  31.1  1  0
season 2000            3   30     101   2  2/38    -     50.50  3.36  90.0  0  0
                       9   88     305  11  5/44   2/34   27.72  3.46  48.0  0  1
season 2000/01        13  122.5   599  22  4/48   3/38   27.22  4.87  33.5  1  0
                      26  244.5   853  47  7/30   5/30   18.14  3.48  31.2  1  2
season 2001            5   45     232  10  3/52   3/56   23.20  5.15  27.0  0  0
                       7   68     212   9  2/29   2/32   23.55  3.11  45.3  0  0
season 2001/02        11  100     478  11  2/44   2/52   43.45  4.78  54.5  0  0
                      14  120.4   315  26  5/9    4/32   12.11  2.61  27.8  1  1
season 2002            8   69     268   9  2/42   2/49   29.77  3.88  46.0  0  0
                       7   64.2   199  11  3/24   2/35   18.09  3.09  35.0  0  0
season 2002/03         7   58.1   227   9  2/39   2/58   25.22  3.90  38.7  0  0
                      21  169.4   572  38  4/15   4/27   15.05  3.37  26.7  3  0
season 2003            0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       7   63.5   214  17  5/23   3/16   12.58  3.35  22.5  0  1
season 2003/04         0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       6   59     216   8  3/44   2/30   27.00  3.66  44.2  0  0
season 2004            0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       8   75.4   255  16  5/23   4/32   15.93  3.37  28.3  1  1
season 2004/05         1    7      27   2  2/27    -     13.50  3.85  21.0  0  0
                       1   10      59   3  3/59    -     19.66  5.90  20.0  0  0
season 2005            0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       7   63     224  11  3/33   2/35   20.36  3.55  34.3  0  0
season 2005/06         0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                      10   96.2   391  12  3/35   2/38   32.58  4.05  48.1  0  0

as captain            11   99     449  18  3/16   3/39   24.94  4.53  33.0  0  0
                       0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
not as captain       183 1674.4  7092 275  5/33   4/19   25.78  4.23  36.5 12  1
                     255 2314.3  8777 392  7/30   5/9    22.39  3.79  35.4 10  8

toss won              85  768.2  3154 131  4/19   4/36   24.07  4.10  35.1  5  0
                     131 1178    4478 196  5/23   5/30   22.84  3.80  36.0  6  3
toss lost            109 1005.2  4387 162  5/33   4/25   27.08  4.36  37.2  7  1
                     124 1136.3  4299 196  7/30   5/9    21.93  3.78  34.7  4  5

toss won & batted     64  586.2  2429 100  4/19   4/36   24.29  4.14  35.1  5  0
                      66  583.5  2082 106  5/23   5/30   19.64  3.56  33.0  3  3
toss won & fielded    21  182     725  31  3/11   3/39   23.38  3.98  35.2  0  0
                      65  594.1  2396  90  4/18   4/28   26.62  4.03  39.6  3  0
toss lost & sent in   35  300.1  1367  48  4/29   4/48   28.47  4.55  37.5  2  0
                      52  458.5  1683  86  7/30   5/23   19.56  3.66  32.0  2  3
toss lost & fielded   74  705.1  3020 114  5/33   4/25   26.49  4.28  37.1  5  1
                      72  677.4  2616 110  5/9    5/34   23.78  3.86  36.9  2  2

1st innings           95  887.1  3745 145  5/33   4/25   25.82  4.22  36.7  5  1
                     137 1271.5  5012 200  5/9    5/34   25.06  3.94  38.1  5  2
2nd innings           98  886.3  3796 148  4/19   4/29   25.64  4.28  35.9  7  0
                     117 1042.4  3765 192  7/30   5/23   19.60  3.61  32.5  5  6

day only matches      90  816    3463 137  4/25   4/29   25.27  4.24  35.7  8  0
                     138 1247    4891 209  5/23   5/23   23.40  3.92  35.7  7  4
day/night matches    104  957.4  4078 156  5/33   4/19   26.14  4.25  36.8  4  1
                     117 1067.3  3886 183  7/30   5/9    21.23  3.64  35.0  3  4

2nd position           1   10      36   2  2/36    -     18.00  3.60  30.0  0  0
                       1   10      40   2  2/40    -     20.00  4.00  30.0  0  0
3rd position          39  367.1  1564  60  4/36   4/40   26.06  4.25  36.7  3  0
                      42  378.5  1462  64  5/23   4/23   22.84  3.85  35.5  1  1
4th position          67  638.3  2736  89  5/33   4/29   30.74  4.28  43.0  5  1
                     140 1317.1  4990 208  7/30   5/9    23.99  3.78  37.9  4  4
5th position          71  649.4  2695 126  4/19   4/33   21.38  4.14  30.9  3  0
                      59  544.3  2034 104  5/23   5/30   19.55  3.73  31.4  4  3
6th position          13  108.2   510  16  4/25   3/53   31.87  4.70  40.6  1  0
                       7   64     251  14  4/16   3/50   17.92  3.92  27.4  1  0

matches won          124 1122.1  4588 214  5/33   4/19   21.43  4.08  31.4  9  1
                     150 1390.2  4941 266  7/30   5/23   18.57  3.55  31.3  8  7
matches tied           3   26      97   6  4/29   2/35   16.16  3.73  26.0  1  0
                       3   29      95   4  2/22   1/22   23.75  3.27  43.5  0  0
matches w/ no result   2   10      44   0   -      -       -    4.40    -   0  0
                       7    7      14   3  2/6    1/8     4.66  2.00  14.0  0  0
matches lost          65  615.3  2812  73  4/37   4/52   38.52  4.56  50.5  2  0
                      95  888.1  3727 119  5/9    4/27   31.31  4.19  44.7  2  1

won batting 1st       64  565.1  2402 110  4/19   4/36   21.83  4.25  30.8  5  0
                      80  734.1  2549 155  7/30   5/23   16.44  3.47  28.4  4  6
won batting 2nd       60  557    2186 104  5/33   4/25   21.01  3.92  32.1  4  1
                      70  656.1  2392 111  5/34   4/18   21.54  3.64  35.4  4  1
lost batting 1st      33  311.2  1365  34  4/37   3/40   40.14  4.38  54.9  1  0
                      32  296.3  1159  34  4/27   3/22   34.08  3.90  52.3  1  0
lost batting 2nd      32  304.1  1447  39  4/52   3/52   37.10  4.75  46.7  1  0
                      63  591.4  2568  85  5/9    4/28   30.21  4.34  41.7  1  1

reduced ov. matches   16  122.1   525  23  3/20   3/30   22.82  4.29  31.8  0  0
                      25  207.1   839  26  3/16   2/6    32.26  4.04  47.8  0  0
50 over matches      178 1651.3  7016 270  5/33   4/19   25.98  4.24  36.7 12  1
                     230 2107.2  7938 366  7/30   5/9    21.68  3.76  34.5 10  8

2 team series         55  490.2  2180  75  4/36   3/28   29.06  4.44  39.2  1  0
                      76  680.1  2708 110  5/23   5/30   24.61  3.98  37.1  3  2
3-4 team tournaments 116 1071.1  4574 174  5/33   4/19   26.28  4.27  36.9  6  1
                     140 1298.2  4869 228  7/30   5/9    21.35  3.75  34.1  5  6
5+ team tournaments   23  212.1   787  44  4/29   4/33   17.88  3.70  28.9  5  0
                      39  336    1200  54  4/15   4/28   22.22  3.57  37.3  2  0

World Cup             17  162.5   624  32  4/29   4/33   19.50  3.83  30.5  4  0
                      21  187.5   693  30  4/28   3/25   23.10  3.68  37.5  1  0
Asia Cup               0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                      16  154.2   538  16  4/23   3/21   33.62  3.48  57.8  1  0
Aus Tri Series (VB)   78  724.5  3051 127  5/33   4/19   24.02  4.20  34.2  5  1
                      16  143.4   605  23  4/27   3/34   26.30  4.21  37.4  1  0
ICC KO/Champions       3   20.2    60   3  1/2    1/25   20.00  2.95  40.6  0  0
                       9   61.1   197  14  4/15   3/26   14.07  3.22  26.2  1  0
NatWest Series         5   45     232  10  3/52   3/56   23.20  5.15  27.0  0  0
                       0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
Super Series ODIs      0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       3   30     122   5  2/38   2/41   24.40  4.06  36.0  0  0

grand finals          25  231.5   984  40  4/33   4/48   24.60  4.24  34.7  2  0
                      27  227     874  42  5/34   5/44   20.80  3.85  32.4  0  2
semi finals            4   38     130  11  4/29   4/36   11.81  3.42  20.7  2  0
                       5   42.5   169   6  3/26   1/29   28.16  3.94  42.8  0  0
quarter finals         1   10      52   2  2/52    -     26.00  5.20  30.0  0  0
                       3   30     107   5  3/31   2/37   21.40  3.56  36.0  0  0
preliminary finals     0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       1   10       9   0   -      -       -    0.90    -   0  0

all finals            30  279.5  1166  53  4/29   4/33   22.00  4.16  31.6  4  0
                      36  309.5  1159  53  5/34   5/44   21.86  3.74  35.0  0  2
other matches        164 1493.5  6375 240  5/33   4/19   26.56  4.26  37.3  8  1
                     219 2004.4  7618 339  7/30   5/9    22.47  3.80  35.4 10  6

in series drawn       18  162     640  26  4/36   3/28   24.61  3.95  37.3  1  0
                      10   69     289  13  3/53   2/6    22.23  4.18  31.8  0  0
in series lost        52  489.2  2108  76  5/33   4/34   27.73  4.30  38.6  5  1
                     121 1108.2  4287 177  5/9    5/23   24.22  3.86  37.5  5  3
in series won        116 1063    4583 184  4/19   4/25   24.90  4.31  34.6  6  0
                     114 1065.4  3932 186  7/30   5/23   21.13  3.68  34.3  4  5
in series shared       8   59.2   210   7  1/2    1/4    30.00  3.53  50.8  0  0
                       5   25.1    70  10  4/15   3/26    7.00  2.78  15.1  1  0
in series leads        0    -       -   -   -      -       -     -      -   -  -
                       5   46.2   199   6  3/35   2/46   33.16  4.29  46.3  0  0

Both have a poor record in India in one dayers as well compared to their career records.

 

[honestbharani]

And therefore, we should hereby conclude that Kumble is better than both of them.

 

[Jono]

Yeah Kumble's record against India is much better

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah Kumble's record against India is much better

Correct yourself. His record IN India is much better, whilst Warney's and Murali's isn't.

 

[Jono]

Can't believe I stuffed up that joke. Ah well what you said

 

[C_C]

I consider Murali to be a significantly better bowler in both Tests and ODIs and it is completely illogical to conclude otherwise.
The same folks who say Warne is better than Murali ( due to Murali playing more on spin-friendly wickets) do not, however, stick to the same argument when we debate Akram vs McGrath or Imran vs Hadlee or Imran vs Lillee. Apparently, when its Warne vs Murali, the whole 'Murali plays on more responsive pitches more often' line of thought can be used but the same reasoning is never applied for it is obvious that Lillee, McGrath, Hadlee etc. have played far more matches on responsive wickets than Akram or Imran.

 

[Slats4ever]

I consider Murali to be a significantly better bowler in both Tests and ODIs and it is completely illogical to conclude otherwise.
The same folks who say Warne is better than Murali ( due to Murali playing more on spin-friendly wickets) do not, however, stick to the same argument when we debate Akram vs McGrath or Imran vs Hadlee or Imran vs Lillee. Apparently, when its Warne vs Murali, the whole 'Murali plays on more responsive pitches more often' line of thought can be used but the same reasoning is never applied for it is obvious that Lillee, McGrath, Hadlee etc. have played far more matches on responsive wickets than Akram or Imran.

who are these folks who claim this? we need names

 

[C_C]

who are these folks who claim this? we need names

The ones who are guilty of this know who they are. I dont have to provide names - reading the threads on these kind of topics shows who they are.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

So basically, you're saying Murali is a better bowler because Wasim and Imran played on spinner wickets?