***Official*** South Africa in New Zealand 2017

[straw man]

I'm genuinely not sure what I think. The guy was found not guilty in court and here we are judging him via a few anecdotes in the press. It doesn't sit 100% right with me either, mind, but I am not sure if that doubt is warranted or not.

Agree it's difficult to know what to think, though there's obviously that repelling and sordid feel to the whole thing. One part of me would like to just say he's been found not guilty, is good at cricket and we should move on. That would be convenient. My brain however tells me that as Binkley said, 'not guilty' isn't the same as innocent, and that supporting Kuggeleijn in cricket requires suspending empathy for the female involved. For me, it's hard to imagine why she would lie about the situation - there's no gain for her there, while his motivations are more obvious. Some misunderstandings at the time so that they have different recollections of events, yes, but that still paints Kuggeleijn in a bad light.

There's a big discrepency between a rape conviction and years in jail, and no conviction and scot-free. Given the full facts are un-knowable I feel like a fairer outcome might have been a half-way point - some admission of wrongdoing and something like community service. However that's not possible with our justice system in this particular case. If that had happened then it might be possible to accept that Kuggeleijn is, if not quite an all-round 'nice guy' as Howsie said, at least just a person who's done something wrong, maybe still has some underlying goodness, has shown remorse, has provided a genuine apology, has matured and has paid penance. Then you could move on. As it stands however, it's hard to feel like this is resolved.

 

[straw man]

On the cricket, very disappointed that Boult is ruled out. Before that I was going to say that, in light of the rain forecast and that the talk of spin has been toned down, my bowling attack would be modified to Boult, Henry, Wagner, Patel, Neesham i.e. don't bother with the second spinner.

Now that Boult's out that confuses the issue further. You could bring in Kuggeleijn but it sounds like they want two spinners so it will probably be Henry, Wagner, Santner, Patel, CDG. Picking CDG for the new ball is just horrible horrible horrible. I think I would have to go Henry, Kuggeleijn, Wagner, Patel, Santner/Neesham. Kuggeleijn's extra batting makes Santner more selectable over Neesham.

PS: A shame with Boult injured that we can't call on either Boult #2 (Wheeler) or Boult #3 (Nuttall), but the first is injured and the second is only just back from injury. Ferguson apparently also just injured himself in time to rule himself out of contention for this test.

 

[straw man]

And if he was not selected despite being falsely accused of rape as the only reason, then I could not support this team.

No issues with kuggelin. He is not guilty, anyone that doesnt watch because of that reason is an idiot imo.

Really. Anyone that has pre-judged the situation in such black and white terms is an idiot imho.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

Agree it's difficult to know what to think, though there's obviously that repelling and sordid feel to the whole thing. One part of me would like to just say he's been found not guilty, is good at cricket and we should move on. That would be convenient. My brain however tells me that as Binkley said, 'not guilty' isn't the same as innocent, and that supporting Kuggeleijn in cricket requires suspending empathy for the female involved. For me, it's hard to imagine why she would lie about the situation - there's no gain for her there, while his motivations are more obvious. Some misunderstandings at the time so that they have different recollections of events, yes, but that still paints Kuggeleijn in a bad light.

There's a big discrepency between a rape conviction and years in jail, and no conviction and scot-free. Given the full facts are un-knowable I feel like a fairer outcome might have been a half-way point - some admission of wrongdoing and something like community service. However that's not possible with our justice system in this particular case. If that had happened then it might be possible to accept that Kuggeleijn is, if not quite an all-round 'nice guy' as Howsie said, at least just a person who's done something wrong, maybe still has some underlying goodness, has shown remorse, has provided a genuine apology, has matured and has paid penance. Then you could move on. As it stands however, it's hard to feel like this is resolved.

Yeah, I'd agree with all this. I think the justice/court process needs a total overhaul for cases of this nature.

To me her reaction immediately afterwards speaks volumes. Yet it probably means nothing in terms of the final verdict. The process for the alleged victims must be so traumatic as well, with all sorts of slurs on character freely thrown around. There must be a way to do it without that.

As for the other poster, if my thoughts on this make me an idiot then I'm happy to be labeled one.

 

[Blain]

100% not an idiot. It's not a black and white situation, and no one wants that sort of thing happening to anyone.

He's had his day in court, twice, and was found not guilty. That's black, but the case it self is all grey.

Apparently there was a capping ceremony last night.. Does this happen before every test? Or is Scotty playing. I would love to see him play TBH.. Just for some excitement in watching someone new.

 

[Blain]

Raval
Latham
Williamson
Broom
Nicholls
Munro
Watling
Kugg
Henry
Patel
Wagner

What I would really like to see. I think Taylor is the biggest piece of the puzzle missing..

 

[Bahnz]

Yeah, I'd agree with all this. I think the justice/court process needs a total overhaul for cases of this nature.

To me her reaction immediately afterwards speaks volumes. Yet it probably means nothing in terms of the final verdict. The process for the alleged victims must be so traumatic as well, with all sorts of slurs on character freely thrown around. There must be a way to do it without that.

As for the other poster, if my thoughts on this make me an idiot then I'm happy to be labeled one.

It is relevant, but at the same time, I don't think necessarily telling to the question of whether or not he raped her. A separate witness testified that she told him afterwards that she never said 'no' during the alleged rape even though she didn't want ***. This is a very difficult issue and I agree that he comes out looking very badly. But again, we weren't in the court room and now that a judgment has been made I think it's best not to invest too much into a handful of snippets pulled out by the media.

Anyway, bugger about the weather, hoping that the forecast improves in the next couple of days.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

A separate witness testified that she told him afterwards that she never said 'no' during the alleged rape even though she didn't want ***.

Not wanting to keep on about it too much, but I believe this is a common reaction as it's almost a natural instinct to seize up and go into some sort of survival mode in situations of extreme stress.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ampht.../23/why-many-rape-victims-dont-fight-or-yell/

But yeah, that possibly counted against the prosecution.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

From the selector's comments I doubt Kuggeleijn will play. Sounds like they're persisting with 2 frontline seamers and either 2 spinners or Colin for the 3rd test.

if he wasn't going to play why on earth would they even call him into the squad

 

[Bahnz]

if he wasn't going to play why on earth would they even call him into the squad

As cover in case there's another injury.

 

[Athlai]

if he wasn't going to play why on earth would they even call him into the squad

Because he'll play in the future probably. Would be a solid way to gauge media/social media reaction, and to even lessen it for if he actually does come in and play for NZ.

Or ignoring all that, because they want to get a future player training with the team.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Because he'll play in the future probably. Would be a solid way to gauge media/social media reaction, and to even lessen it for if he actually does come in and play for NZ.

Or ignoring all that, because they want to get a future player training with the team.

to me it seems a great way to get the worst of both worlds. You get massive media outrage but you don't even get the benefit of him playing.

 

[Shady Slim]

is he such a talent from a cricketing point of view it's understandable NZC think it's all worth the media backlash to play him?

 

[wellAlbidarned]

we're pretty desperate for pace bowlers that don't suck so probably yes

 

[Bahnz]

is he such a talent from a cricketing point of view it's understandable NZC think it's all worth the media backlash to play him?

Well, he's not a KW or a Boult type player where it was pretty obvious that they were once in a generation players who were bound to play for NZ and succeed. Kuggeleijn isn't in that class, so no probably not.

 

[Athlai]

Well, he's not a KW or a Boult type player where it was pretty obvious that they were once in a generation players who were bound to play for NZ and succeed. Kuggeleijn isn't in that class, so no probably not.

Boult was pretty strongly seen as in Southee's shadow tbf

 

[Bahnz]

Boult was pretty strongly seen as in Southee's shadow tbf

Fair, Southee a better example probably.

 

[StephenZA]

Looks like QDK is available to play, very happy about that... but some sympathy for Klaasesn. Would like to have seen how he went at the higher level.

 

[Flem274*]

1. Jeet Raval
2. Tom Latham
3. Kane Williamson
4. Neil Broom
5. Henry Nicholls
6. BJ Watling+
7. Mitchell Santner
8. Scott Kuggeleijn
9. Jeetan Patel
10. Matt Henry
11. Neil Wagner

James Neesham
Collin de Grandhomme

I've found the NZ A program we all wanted guys

 

[NZTailender]

In some ways I hope he plays because as a cricketer, I don't rate him and hope he gets exposed as the spud he is.