***Official*** South Africa in India 2015

[aussie]

van Zyl is excellent, he would have got into the team earlier if not for guys like Kallis and Smith!! He and Elgar had been knocking on the door for awhile.... Vilas is not a batsmen he is the wicket-keeper, he can bat and does well but he is not the class of someone like van Zyl. I think he is ahead of Quinny due to experience and form (for awhile there) and they have stuck with him. Vilas has been around the SA (and county circuit I believe, unsure for certain) for a number of years and has always performed well, his experience comes in with communication with the bowlers I think, while he is not experienced in India, he communicates with the cpt. and bowlers better, and this may have been needed in India. I am almost certain unless Vilas does something special that Quinny will be keeping in the tests again when England come to SA.

Upcoming SA batsman are R Rossouw (injured), R Hendricks, Theunis de Bruyn (I rate this one). Roussouw and Bavuma are fighting for the next in-line for test team. Rossouw is highly talented and should probably get in next but Bavuma (who I quite like) might get in for those other reasons. Bavuma should definitely have played this last test. But really the SA test batting line-up is pretty sorted unless injury forces an issue.

We have young fast bowlers, a few slower bowlers, some batsmen all coming though. Right now the problem is I can`t see a genuine all-rounder of Pollock/Klusener/Kallis (little unfair that one!) ability coming through... this is why SA are struggling to balance sides at the moment. Wiese fits the best, but I don't quite rate him good enough on either discipline at International level. This is also why Parnell ended up as such a disappointment.

You reckon A Morkel or McLaren were given long enough as possible test all-rounders?

 

[StephenZA]

You reckon A Morkel or McLaren were given long enough as possible test all-rounders?

Not good enough to replace Philander or Duminy in current test setup. In ODI maybe Albie could come back, his form looks good, but he tends to give as much away with the ball as he makes with the bat at international level. But my point was more regarding young up and coming players (18-22 bracket) that will possibly be making the team in 5/6 years time... Sorry reading back on my post I was mixing the future and now categories!... i.e. rambling thoughts.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

SA Team: van Zyl, Elgar, Faf, Amla, AB, Duminy, Vilas, Philander, Steyn, Morkel, Tahir. if Steyn is injured don't be surprised if Harmer gets a nod ahead of Rabada. I dont see us going in with only 5 specialist batsmen again.... this series (or ever really).

About the five bowlers thing, from SA's perspective playing 5 specialist bowlers made sense since Duminy was out with injury coupled with nature of pitch and inexperienced spinners stock. An extra batsman strengthen the batting order but I would not bet here on additional extra runs that another batsman could contribute to restricting opposition to lower score with extra bowler. SA could not really field one spinner and there was uncertainty how Elgar would perform (as a bowler) thus it would have been a risk. And at the same time SA could not really leave out a pacer. So the sensible thing was to leave out a batsman imo. The bowling unit was certainly successful enough. It's that their main batsmen did not click at the right times and SA was bundled out for lower scores. If Bavuma played at 6 and Vilas at 7, I don't think the result would have been any different at Mohali. In fact the odds of India scoring much and setting out a bigger target go high.

 

[Pratters]

Looking forward to the second test so much. I expect South Africa to bounce back. It would set up the last two tests really well as well.

 

[StephenZA]

About the five bowlers thing, from SA's perspective playing 5 specialist bowlers made sense since Duminy was out with injury coupled with nature of pitch and inexperienced spinners stock. An extra batsman strengthen the batting order but I would not bet here on additional extra runs that another batsman could contribute to restricting opposition to lower score with extra bowler. SA could not really field one spinner and there was uncertainty how Elgar would perform (as a bowler) thus it would have been a risk. And at the same time SA could not really leave out a pacer. So the sensible thing was to leave out a batsman imo. The bowling unit was certainly successful enough. It's that their main batsmen did not click at the right times and SA was bundled out for lower scores. If Bavuma played at 6 and Vilas at 7, I don't think the result would have been any different at Mohali. In fact the odds of India scoring much and setting out a bigger target go high.

Disagree with this. If this had been a standard Indian wicket, dry but good for batting first three days and then breaking up and spinning, the 5 bowler strategy may have worked and been needed particularly if India batted first. I think that the SA team management misread the pitch, and what we got was a turner day one, picked the extra bowler anyway and then bowled part timers instead of the main bowler even on the third morning. I worry about Tahir giving away runs, but once he was picked in the team he should have been used straight away. Steyn took no wickets in the first innings and did not bowl in 2nd we still bowled out India for low scores. Not having the extra batsmen not only made the batting line-up feel short but definitely put pressure on the big names to perform. And imo Bavuma is the correct sort of batsmen on that pitch, nuggety determined, Elgar like. So him sitting at 6 instead of Vilas takes pressure of the top order (even if only in their minds) and then maybe gives us a chance to score another 50 runs... on that pitch who knows!

Don't forget SA for ten years made the decision to play 4 bowlers a wicket-keeper/batsmen and 6 batsmen, quite successfully. Yes the loss of Duminy hurt the balance. But you must trust the bowlers you pick to do the job and not second guess them during the match. I really think that SA got themselves confused for this match and where trying to cover themselves for all eventualities rather than just trusting people to do their jobs. If you think someone might not do the job don`t pick him in the team. Uncertainty caused all SA`s problems that game in lots of different ways.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Disagree with this. If this had been a standard Indian wicket, dry but good for batting first three days and then breaking up and spinning, the 5 bowler strategy may have worked and been needed particularly if India batted first. I think that the SA team management misread the pitch, and what we got was a turner day one, picked the extra bowler anyway and then bowled part timers instead of the main bowler even on the third morning. I worry about Tahir giving away runs, but once he was picked in the team he should have been used straight away. Steyn took no wickets in the first innings and did not bowl in 2nd we still bowled out India for low scores. Not having the extra batsmen not only made the batting line-up feel short but definitely put pressure on the big names to perform. And imo Bavuma is the correct sort of batsmen on that pitch, nuggety determined, Elgar like. So him sitting at 6 instead of Vilas takes pressure of the top order (even if only in their minds) and then maybe gives us a chance to score another 50 runs... on that pitch who knows!

Don't forget SA for ten years made the decision to play 4 bowlers a wicket-keeper/batsmen and 6 batsmen, quite successfully. Yes the loss of Duminy hurt the balance. But you must trust the bowlers you pick to do the job and not second guess them during the match. I really think that SA got themselves confused for this match and where trying to cover themselves for all eventualities rather than just trusting people to do their jobs. If you think someone might not do the job don`t pick him in the team. Uncertainty caused all SA`s problems that game in lots of different ways.

Does not this reinforce the fact that five bowlers being the optimal strategy here? Steyn did not pick wickets and still SA managed to bundle out India twice with low scores. All good that Elgar picked up wickets but as I have already said that it was not a given fact before start of play. In second Innings, it would not have been possible to restrict India if one of Tahir and Harmer had to sit out. Mind I am talking about the build up for Mohali test. If Duminy is fit and Elgar with proven ability of some sort, I prefer to go with the combo of 6 batsmen (Elgar & Duminy included), 1 spinner and 3 pacers. For the combo of last test, agree to disagree then.

 

[G.I.Joe]

OS in his post i quoted didn't even quote Pratters, he made a stand alone reply to a HonestB point that is different to mine.

That's exactly what a conversation is, idiot. One person replying to another.

 

[StephenZA]

Does not this reinforce the fact that five bowlers being the optimal strategy here? Steyn did not pick wickets and still SA managed to bundle out India twice with low scores. All good that Elgar picked up wickets but as I have already said that it was not a given fact before start of play. In second Innings, it would not have been possible to restrict India if one of Tahir and Harmer had to sit out. Mind I am talking about the build up for Mohali test. If Duminy is fit and Elgar with proven ability of some sort, I prefer to go with the combo of 6 batsmen (Elgar & Duminy included), 1 spinner and 3 pacers. For the combo of last test, agree to disagree then.

Ahh, but I think that you misunderstand. I never said we should have gone in with 3 pacers and one spinner in the last match, upon seeing the pitch. Particularly with Morkel and Duminy injured then they could have gone in with Harmer and Tahir, Steyn and Philander. Yes before the match I was advocating not playing Tahir, unless it was a rank turner (think I said as much in an earlier post). It was a rank turner so, because of uncertainty about the bowlers they had available they basically played everybody. I`m saying you look at the pitch and play your best 4 bowlers for that pitch, believing they are going to do the job. With Elgar and van Zyl being backup.

And for the next test, if it is more normal dry Indian wicket then, 3 pacers and Tahir with Duminy as backup. If it looks like another turner from day one then pick 2 pacers and Harmer, Tahir and Duminy.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Have you seen Peidt's bowling? How is he?

 

[StephenZA]

Have you seen Peidt's bowling? How is he?

Personally I prefer Peidt, same as Harmer but a bit more variety and flight. He was picked before Harmer originally, did well and then unfortunately got injured. This season coming back from injury he appears to have lost some of his control and so has dropped down the pecking order.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Personally I prefer Peidt, same as Harmer but a bit more variety and flight. He was picked before Harmer originally, did well and then unfortunately got injured. This season coming back from injury he appears to have lost some of his control and so has dropped down the pecking order.

Was asking about Peidt because I have some serious reservations for Tahir. His red ball leg breaks dont turn as much and as already discussed before that he tries too many variations. When he bowls a googly, he pitches it in between wide marker and off stump and when he bowls a leg break, he pitches it in line with the stumps or in a leg stump line. He got some success in the second Innings as he was pitching some of his leg breaks outside off stumps thus creating a bit of confusion. For left handers, he will almost bowl every ball a googly. This in reverse works well for him in limited overs but not so much in tests.

 

[StephenZA]

Was asking about Peidt because I have some serious reservations for Tahir. His red ball leg breaks dont turn as much and as already discussed before that he tries too many variations. When he bowls a googly, he pitches it in between wide marker and off stump and when he bowls a leg break, he pitches it in line with the stumps or in a leg stump line. He got some success in the second Innings as he was pitching some of his leg breaks outside off stumps thus creating a bit of confusion. For left handers, he will almost bowl every ball a googly. This in reverse works well for him in limited overs but not so much in tests.

Piedt will not replace Tahir. It is a choice between Piedt/Harmer and Tahir if we play two spinners. Outside India and definitely outside the subcontinent I do not think that Tahir should be SA`s test spinner. He might do alright in this series in India and we probably need his leg spin variation. But for most other places in the world it is a straight out fight between Harmer and Piedt, I personally think Piedt will be the better solution but only time will tell.

 

[weldone]

Duminy is fit for 2nd test. This one can be much closer.

 

[marc71178]

Don't forget SA for ten years made the decision to play 4 bowlers a wicket-keeper/batsmen and 6 batsmen, quite successfully.

When one of the batsmen is Kallis then you're never going to pick 5 specialist bowlers so it's not as if there was any decision to make.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Steyn series average tracker:
Bowling: N/A
Batting: 4.0

May it continue

 

[StephenZA]

When one of the batsmen is Kallis then you're never going to pick 5 specialist bowlers so it's not as if there was any decision to make.

Granted .

But the mental attitude changed for our test team in particular, (around the time Smith took over actually). Whereby players where picked for a specific duty i.e. batting, bowling and wicket-keeping. With 6 batsmen, 4 bowlers and a wicketkeeper. Rather than for an all-round ability. You go back 15 years ago players where picked as much for there all-round ability (bits players) as for anything else, looking at guys like Symcox, Boje, Peterson (spin bowler) even Klusener you find teams where we (SA ) worried as much about batting collapses so picked bowlers that could bat as well etc.. Once players of the quality of Kallis (batting perspective), Smith, Amla, AB, Gibbs, and then Steyn, Morkel, Ntini, Philander etc came along the attitude changed to pick specialist players. This is one of the reasons the lower batting order of SA is not the quality it was 10 + years ago, we would rather pick a Rabada and teach him to hold up an end than pick someone like Ryan Maclaren/Wayne Parnell (not that they were not tried but more for ODI). This is also the reason SA have tried AB as wicket keeper and why Duminy (who makes the team on batting merit) is so pivotal to the team and Quinny is important as the future for SA in helping balance the team; Additionally, this is the reason we've struggled recently to balance the ODI team where you need a 5th bowler.... If you look at the last 5 years of Kallis's career his loss was more in the ODI environment as an all-rounder, and more as a batsmen in the test team.

I personally hope SA sticks to picking specialists for the respective roles and trying to improve their other abilities than picking bit and pieces player, and we stick to the 6 batsmen, 4 quality bowlers, and a wicket-keeper.

I hope that did not ramble to much... its late in the day here at work...

 

[aussie]

That's exactly what a conversation is, idiot. One person replying to another.

Haha oh great the GI Joe wannabe gets flustered and resorts to name calling as his posts descend into incoherent maniac drivel, will you now troll me into getting your self banned? Tune into a another episode of CW posters gone mad on ESPN!

 

[G.I.Joe]

Maybe just stick to the point of the discussion instead of needlessly "reminiscing" about past glory eh buddy?

 

[aussie]

Not good enough to replace Philander or Duminy in current test setup. In ODI maybe Albie could come back, his form looks good, but he tends to give as much away with the ball as he makes with the bat at international level. But my point was more regarding young up and coming players (18-22 bracket) that will possibly be making the team in 5/6 years time... Sorry reading back on my post I was mixing the future and now categories!... i.e. rambling thoughts.

No worries regarding rambling thoughts my friend ha. I guess if SA felt the need to pick an all-rounder since you can argue in most cases still they don't need one - that all-rounder in A Morkel or McClaren wouldn't be challenging Duminy or Philander for a place - but rather the W keeper spot QDK/Vilas & thus AB would keep.

In some respects over the years not just in tests but all formats I never thought SA gave A Morkel or McClaren long enough runs though.

Not having the extra batsmen not only made the batting line-up feel short but definitely put pressure on the big names to perform. And imo Bavuma is the correct sort of batsmen on that pitch, nuggety determined, Elgar like. So him sitting at 6 instead of Vilas takes pressure of the top order (even if only in their minds) and then maybe gives us a chance to score another 50 runs... on that pitch who knows!

Don't forget SA for ten years made the decision to play 4 bowlers a wicket-keeper/batsmen and 6 batsmen, quite successfully. Yes the loss of Duminy hurt the balance. But you must trust the bowlers you pick to do the job and not second guess them during the match. I really think that SA got themselves confused for this match and where trying to cover themselves for all eventualities rather than just trusting people to do their jobs. If you think someone might not do the job don`t pick him in the team. Uncertainty caused all SA`s problems that game in lots of different ways.

Agree pretty much. Your point on Bavuma is interesting. Speaking to some other proteas I know outside CW, they have been saying a while long before this series while he is a ok batsman they reckon he is pushed into the national set-up in recent more for quota reasons. They sensed him not being picked in 1st test was similar reasons why when that keeper Tsokeile was around after Boucher retired & SA had chosen to let AB keep in tests until De Kock emerged - the management didn't rate him.

The preferable squad selection I've been hearing was that SA should have picked a natural opener this series in either Stephen Cook (leading Sunsoil Series run scorer last year) or Andrew Puttick & moved Van Zyl back to his natural middle-order spot.

 

[Pratters]

Steyn series average tracker:
Bowling: N/A
Batting: 4.0

May it continue

It was still quite hot in India during the ODI series. He would have been better off playing the tests directly.