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***Official*** South Africa in England

Should Freddy be included in team for the second Test?


  • Total voters
    44

Mr Mxyzptlk

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But no-one should have their season's work done on a single game.

At least, not if that single game was a good performance.
Anyone with any sense would consider that his low average is largely down to the limited bowling opportunity though. No one's going to be fooled by the statistics there. But you can't say that he doesn't deserve the figures if he bowled well on the occasion. Even if he's not a very good bowler, if he bowled well for the wickets, he deserves them.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
If he bowled well, he should play again.

If he did not bowl well, he doesn't deserve the figures.

Simple deduction pal.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
If he bowled well, he should play again.

If he did not bowl well, he doesn't deserve the figures.

Simple deduction pal.
I'm not even sure which player you're talking about, but that isn't neccessarily the case. If he was only filling in for injury and is not a particularly good bowler consistently then he shouldn't play again - regardless of how well he bowled.

There was also the possibility raised that he may not be available.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
He played for a UCCE at first, and as I said - useless bowlers have played for the county whose books he is apparently on, so it seems odd that he hasn't played for them since uni finished.

BTW - FFS Ashwell Prince has somehow been gifted 2-11. Doubt he'll bowl again all summer. 8-)
 
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tooextracool

International Coach
See, I don't think you can say automatically that 30s and 40s are no use. Take, for instance, Vaughan's 48 in the Second Test against New Zealand. It was a vital component of the run-chase and if he'd got out for 3 then we'd have been in a far more parlous position than we were when he actually was dismissed.
They're not of no use. Technically, every run in test match cricket is useful to some extent but that is besides the point. 48 is a failure in my book and not condonable for the simple reason that you need to go on when you are set. Getting out while Vaughan got out simply left England vulnerable to a collapse which luckily in this case did not happen. If set players arent the one going on to get a 100 or at least a high 50 then who else is going to do it? Unfortunately, this is the difference between England and Australia over the years in that when their batsmen get set they actually get the job done.

Yes, there's been more than one occasion in the last year where Vaughan has failed to kick-on with a start when he should have done. I'm certainly not saying there isn't there.

However, I don't think you can suggest for a minute that his post-captaincy record at three\four is anywhere near as bad as his post-captaincy record opening. I know we've gone over Vaughan's 2004 and 2004/05 long before now and I've no real desire to do it again, but even that he's improved upon since his return from injury in 2007.

Thats not my point. Ive never argued that Vaughan is better opening than at 3.

I absolutely hate the "he averaged 40\50\whatever so he had a good series" mantra. It annoys the heck out of me. If someone scores 224* in the 1st innings of the series then fails to make a half-century for the rest of it but still averages 40, I'll say he had a poor series every time. I've said several times that Collingwood had a relatively poor Ashes 2006/07, as one for-instance.

But as I said - you simply cannot expect someone to score 70 and more every time they come to the crease.
Its not every time. I do expect that at some point in the last 5 years a player who is worth his place in the side has managed to produce a series where he has succeeded more times than he has failed or at least scored 3 good innings in a 3 test match series. Vaughan simply hasnt done that. He fails far far more often than he has succeeded in every series and he generally has 1 good test in a series and does little else thereafter
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Interesting, from what I saw Waqar was much the better conventional-swing bowler of the two. Wasim mostly pitched short with the new-ball in games I watched. This was mostly post-heyday though - I watched both of them in 1992, but not so that I'd remember what was conventional swing or anything along those lines, and the next time I saw either was 1996.
Waqar was always known more for his banana reverse in-swingers than he was for his booming outswingers. Its not like he never swung the ball conventionally, because he did on many occasions. However he wasnt an out and out swing bowler like Wasim who was essentially capable of doing absolutely anything with a cricket ball in his hand. The fact that Wasim didnt end up being the best fast bowler of his own time probably has to do with his own discipline.

I don't doubt that you see fewer bowlers of 90mph (or so) who swing the ball as you do those at 80mph (or so). However, there's two reasons for this: the most obvious one that 90mph bowlers are fairly rare; and also the simple fact that all too often bowlers who bowl at 90mph don't have the right mindset for swing. Too many are encouraged to bowl too short, and too many are encouraged to bowl with actions that don't enable the good seam position essential to get swing. I'd say there are a good few of the rare 90mph merchants I've seen who fit this description.
Well its also harder to keep the seam upright at 90mph than at 80mph. Although Broad recently mentioned that bowling with a wobbly seam is likely to generate more swing than bowling with a perfectly upright seam and I've noticed that with bowlers such as Hoggard. Either way, IMO bowlers who bowl at 80mph IMO are more likely to exploit swinging conditions than those at 90mph and i also believe that they are likely to swing it more. There are exceptions to the rule though and Shane Bond for one swings the new ball as much as I have ever seen anyone before, but in general conventional swing is greater at slower speed than at higher speeds.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
No worse than their bowling at countless hundreds of batsmen who've toured England TBH.
Doubt that.Bowling poorly is one thing, but bowling directly to his strengths is a recipe for disaster as Anderson and co did in the first 2 tests in 2003.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yeah Eoin Morgan's finally starting to show his class after a rather premature introduction to both county and international (!) cricket.

I hope he'll look to play for England if he thinks he's good enough though. Just a shame Joyce now looks unlikely to make it, which, who knows, might put some good Irish batsmen off, which would be a mighty shame.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Doubt that.Bowling poorly is one thing, but bowling directly to his strengths is a recipe for disaster as Anderson and co did in the first 2 tests in 2003.
England bowlers have bowled directly to batsmen's strengths more times than I can remember since I started watching cricket.

Of course, they weren't trying to (at least, I hope they weren't, else there's real trouble), they simply weren't good enough to bowl in the right areas.

Smith is simply a batsman with some of the most obvious strong and no-strokes areas so it looks worse to him than most others.
 
In the interests of consistency, i will continue to say South Africa are as good as they look because i know as soon as i stop they will start winning things (it just happened with Spain at euro 2008).

But seriously, what convinced me was their performance in India. On paper a much harder place to go to for this SA team than England, against a better team, and it took a doctored final test pitch to stop them from taking the series. Not that it'll be easy in England, but in my book they should be favourites.


I'm not sure about reading that much into South Africas result in India. In the first test they batted well but India still got a first innings lead.

In the second, SOuth Africa made full use of very seam and swing friendly conditions to knock India over cheaply.
However South Africa were 4-117 in their first dig and the game was in the balance until Kallis held the innings togther and De Villiers. SOuth africa played well here but Kallis knock was pivotal IMO.

Prior to the third test, Arthur was full of bravado that If India prdouced a pitch full of cracks, RSA had the 150 km/hr bowlers to exploit that.
And yet, despite being what being 1-150 having won a crucial toss and against an Indian side minus Zaheer, Tendulkar and Kumble, RSA lost. And guess what , Kallis failed both times and RSA's batsmen were unable to captalise.

I'm not sure the Saffies are the outstanding side they are being made out to be.
They are favourites but England are certainly in with a chance IMO.
 

Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
Something like "Oil be back", was mentioned on Cricket Writers on TV when quoting a newspaper.
 

Uppercut

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No, really, it didn't. No-one altered that pitch during the match, and no-one did any illegal action on it. It was simply prepared to suit India's strengths (as opposed to the Second Test which couldn't have been better suited to SA's strengths) and they duly exploited it.
They tried to prepare a sporting pitch for the second test, i.e. one with a bit of pace on the first couple of days but that breaks up later on for the spinners. Since SA won in three days we'll never know how sporting it really was.

Maybe 'doctored' was an unwise use of words. But the pitch wasn't watered for over a week beforehand and the BCCI were given an official warning from the ICC for preparing a sub-standard pitch for a test match, and my point was that this was the length India had to go to in order to draw a home series against South Africa. To be fair to Smith and co., none of them tried to use the pitch as an excuse for losing the final test.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I$C$C have no right, AFAIC, to warn anyone for preparing any sort of wicket. They have no control over what is produced - the home team has exclusive right of way there.

OK, if we're getting an abundance of early finishes over a lengthy period of time, maybe then there's reason to have a word, but even then, no enforcement can take place.

As a one-off, pitches like that are the lifeblood of cricket. There must be matches from time to time that give a real chance to spin, and likewise those which give it to seam.

I don't see preparing a wicket to suit your strengths as "going to lengths" of any sort TBH. No-one is compelled to give a certain amount of watering to any form of pitch.
 

Uppercut

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I'm not sure about reading that much into South Africas result in India. In the first test they batted well but India still got a first innings lead.

In the second, SOuth Africa made full use of very seam and swing friendly conditions to knock India over cheaply.
However South Africa were 4-117 in their first dig and the game was in the balance until Kallis held the innings togther and De Villiers. SOuth africa played well here but Kallis knock was pivotal IMO.

Prior to the third test, Arthur was full of bravado that If India prdouced a pitch full of cracks, RSA had the 150 km/hr bowlers to exploit that.
And yet, despite being what being 1-150 having won a crucial toss and against an Indian side minus Zaheer, Tendulkar and Kumble, RSA lost. And guess what , Kallis failed both times and RSA's batsmen were unable to captalise.

I'm not sure the Saffies are the outstanding side they are being made out to be.
They are favourites but England are certainly in with a chance IMO.
Of course England are in with a chance, to suggest otherwise would just be ignorant. However i did watch quite a bit of that series and found South Africa rather impressive. It's worth remembering that a win against India in seam and swing friendly conditions is something that England failed to do this time last summer. The Kallis-de Villiers knock was important, of course, but that's because they're quality batsmen. Kallis will no doubt play at least one pivotal knock against England in this series, and it won't detract from the team's overall performance. I don't mean to make too much of the third test pitch, but it was obviously going to suit India down to the ground, and i even had an uncharacteristically large bet on them to win. If England prepare pitches similar to that one (hardly possible given English conditions but hypothetically) i'll make them favourites every time.

Any achievement needs a bit of luck and the tour of india was hardly an unqualified success, but i saw enough there to suggest the South Africa have more than enough to beat an England team overflowing with out-of-form and distinctly average players.
 

Uppercut

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I$C$C have no right, AFAIC, to warn anyone for preparing any sort of wicket. They have no control over what is produced - the home team has exclusive right of way there.

OK, if we're getting an abundance of early finishes over a lengthy period of time, maybe then there's reason to have a word, but even then, no enforcement can take place.

As a one-off, pitches like that are the lifeblood of cricket. There must be matches from time to time that give a real chance to spin, and likewise those which give it to seam.

I don't see preparing a wicket to suit your strengths as "going to lengths" of any sort TBH. No-one is compelled to give a certain amount of watering to any form of pitch.
The warning was because of a potential safety issue, i suspect. If you watched much of the match you'll understand why. I agree that pitches that facilitate spin are absolutely necessary, and often poor and cracked pitches produce the best matches. However, an example of a good turning pitch IMO would be the one at Old Trafford for the second test between England and NZ. The one for the third test in India was an absolute minefield.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
The weather's looking awful in the 2nd half of this week, so I don't know how much cricket we'll see at Lord's before Saturday.

The other thing that I've only just noticed is that the 3 test starts on a Wednesday. I don't remember that happening over here previously. afaics it's so that the the final (back-to-back) test can start on a Thursday and not eat up any vital odi time.
 

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