*Official* Pakistan in England 2010

[tooextracool]

Whilst I'm not 100% convinced by Trott at number 3, he is the only one of the top 6 averaging over 40 in this series. Four of the others average under 30.

Averages tell half the story regarding Trott. I mean hes literally incapable of scoring big runs because of how limited he is as a player. Expect to see a lot more of him plodding around for 200 + deliveries and then throwing it away. Problem is that in those 200 odd deliveries hes only going to score 40-50 runs at best.

 

[Jarquis]

Which is twice as many as most of the current lot.

 

[tooextracool]

That isnt saying much. Ask me and KP should be the first one on the chopping board.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Averages tell half the story regarding Trott. I mean hes literally incapable of scoring big runs because of how limited he is as a player. Expect to see a lot more of him plodding around for 200 + deliveries and then throwing it away. Problem is that in those 200 odd deliveries hes only going to score 40-50 runs at best.

You know it makes me wonder how he got 140 odd in that test match, considering the situation and context (his first test)

 

[Jarquis]

That isnt saying much. Ask me and KP should be the first one on the chopping board.

That's my point, I don't get the continual criticism of Trott from some people when he's putting up better performances than the majority of our other batsmen.
The guy's doing well, he's still relatively inexperienced at this level, having only been in the side for a year. But he's doing his job at 3, besides the series in South Africa where he was horrifically out of touch he's scored some important runs for us.

 

[tooextracool]

You know it makes me wonder how he got 140 odd in that test match, considering the situation and context (his first test)

It was his debut test and they bowled to his strengths. He's not a bad batsman, he just needs to add more shots to his game because otherwise any half decent bowling attack is just going to frustrate him by dragging their length back and waiting for him to eventually make a mistake.

 

[slowfinger]

Well if we're going to have standards like this, we might as well all stop posting, no?

"Well, yeah, Akmal dropped a ton of catches, but so would I, so I better not say anything about it."

And what's wrong with saying that? The point I was trying to get across was he talks alot about how poor England's batting/fielding/bowling is when the reality is that you can't do anything about it, if it happens it happens. End of. Don't start ranting about how rubbish a bowling lineup is- it's just totally pointless.

EDIT: And if you just quote me saying things backing my point then I can give you as many quotes to back up my point.

 

[tooextracool]

That's my point, I don't get the continual criticism of Trott from some people when he's putting up better performances than the majority of our other batsmen.
The guy's doing well, he's still relatively inexperienced at this level, having only been in the side for a year. But he's doing his job at 3, besides the series in South Africa where he was horrifically out of touch he's scored some important runs for us.

Look, Im not saying that he should be dropped. The point is that he's the one batsman in our side currently whos actually in form. And yet hes incapable of getting 3 figures or anywhere close. If you don't see that as a problem then I cant help you.

 

[Jacknife]

Averages tell half the story regarding Trott. I mean hes literally incapable of scoring big runs because of how limited he is as a player. Expect to see a lot more of him plodding around for 200 + deliveries and then throwing it away. Problem is that in those 200 odd deliveries hes only going to score 40-50 runs at best.

I'm not sure that's right regarding Trott,If we look at this series-
1st Test 38(67) & 26(55)
2nd Test 55(125) & 53(101)
3rd Test 12(34) & 36(130)
On evidence just from this series he score at just under a run a ball,which is not bad in tests.I think you can't say he's going to get 40 or 50 from 200 deliveries just off the last innings,the problem with the last innings is, he got out after doing all the hard work and setting up the partnership with Cook.If he had gone on and got say 100 off 250 he would of been a great knock.
He also got 226 a few tests ago even if it was against Bangladesh.

 

[tooextracool]

Honestly, my opinion is that ATM he doesnt have the game to get 3 figures. Simply doesnt have the shots, and I'd be very very surprised if he succeeded in Australia unless he learns how to cut or pull or both.

 

[Jarquis]

Look, Im not saying that he should be dropped. The point is that he's the one batsman in our side currently whos actually in form. And yet hes incapable of getting 3 figures or anywhere close. If you don't see that as a problem then I cant help you.

I just think you're massively overstating his problems. He has 6 scores of 50 or more in 12 Tests. Excluding the South Africa series he has 5 scores of 50 or more in 15 innings. The guy is capable of scoring runs. He doesn't average ~50 for nothing.
All your talk of him scoring 32(190) is way off the mark as well, his SR isn't far from 50. But in Test cricket SR is such a meh statistic half the time. In our current lineup Trott scoring runs and occupying the crease is massively important and I really don't get why you criticise him for it.
In Test cricket you can afford to defend and wait for the bad balls, we criticise batsmen for not putting a price on their wicket and then one somebody comes along who does value their wicket and gets criticised for it.
He has a double hundred, admittedly against Bangladesh but last time I checked you need scoring shots to make a double.
226(349) dire.

 

[Jacknife]

Honestly, my opinion is that ATM he doesnt have the game to get 3 figures. Simply doesnt have the shots, and I'd be very very surprised if he succeeded in Australia unless he learns how to cut or pull or both.

How can you say that, when in 12 tests, he's had a 100 and 200 as well as 4 50's not a bad start at all. I agree he needs to work on his scoring shots and rotating the strike,but he seems a hard worker who enjoys batting for long periods.

 

[tooextracool]

50s arent good enough in test cricket. In my book, if you get a 50 you have failed yourself and your team.

 

[Jarquis]

How about just scoring "runs"?
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

 

[andyc]

Scaly, Black_Warrior, Beleg, Faisal, etc; stop the crap now; any more antagonistic posts directed at England or Pakistani fans won't be tolerated.

 

[Neil Pickup]

It was his debut test and they bowled to his strengths. He's not a bad batsman, he just needs to add more shots to his game because otherwise any half decent bowling attack is just going to frustrate him by dragging their length back and waiting for him to eventually make a mistake.

Yeah, with this. When was the last time you saw him score heavily off an attack that's pushing him back?

I see the Aussie attack keeping it back of a length and tying him down, before slipping a full one in, wide of off, which he'll drive at without getting his weight transferred properly into position, and get caught by Mike Hussey in the gully.

Also, further guidelines for those who are interested in an intelligent debate and exchange of opinions on a cricketing topic within this thread:

• "England is full of South Africans" ceased to be funny around five years ago. Using this as an argument suggests you have no valid points to contribute.
• Saeed Ajmal's action has attracted controversy for some time. Whether or not we believe it's legitimate, none of us have the technology to prove for sure, and mentioning it in any manner won't help debate,
• "You're not an international cricketer" is a ridiculous line of thought which cannot further dialogue. The point being discussed is the manner of dismissal, shot selection and general nous being displayed - not whether we could see Mohammad Aamer.
• Do not make posts that are purely aimed at getting a reaction from people - there are a great deal of talking points from this match, particularly with respect to make-up of batting lineups, Jonathan Trott's technique, Strauss' captaincy, Cook's run of form, Riaz's debut or England's inability to do anything with the ball on a flat track - without resorting to namecalling and trolling for a flame war.
• Do not tell other people what to do or think. Reporting a post has not, and will never, lead to automatic action but to discretionary response.

 

[Sir Alex]

Loving the irony of the last line.
Fair play moderator with banning powers.

 

[Neil Pickup]

How can you say that, when in 12 tests, he's had a 100 and 200 as well as 4 50's not a bad start at all. I agree he needs to work on his scoring shots and rotating the strike,but he seems a hard worker who enjoys batting for long periods.

That's not the point that's being made, though.

Granted, Trott has scored a good deal of runs for us, including some vital innings, but we are talking about technique and manner at the crease. When you look at his balance at the crease and the method in which he tries to go about scoring runs it is terribly reliant on the front foot: either the cover/squarish drive or the whip through midwicket. The runs against Bangladesh are irrelevant to that argument as the Bangladesh bowling attack is not good enough to maintain the line of attack, or quick enough to force him consistently back. I'd love to see a Hawkeye plot of his run scoring based on where the ball reaches him at the crease - where does he get his runs off back-of-a-length bowling?

It is all very well saying that he bats time and stays at the crease, but can you honestly say that the opposing attack look concerned by that when he's stuck in second gear and the scoreboard is almost stationary? Does it look like he is in control of the game or just a playing piece being buffetted by the other actors? I have gone on, constantly, to my youth teams this summer about great players being those who control a match and make the other team respond to their decision making and their gameplay. Trott just doesn't have that factor - and this isn't about being flashy, because Kallis and Dravid definitely had this "edge" without ever setting anyone's pulse racing.

 

[GIMH]

Pickup doesn't have mod powers

 

[slowfinger]

Scaly, Black_Warrior, Beleg, Faisal, etc; stop the crap now; any more antagonistic posts directed at England or Pakistani fans won't be tolerated.

More than happy to. Was trying to stop the ignorance ages ago tbf...