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***Official*** New Zealand in England series 2013

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
What this whole debate highlights is that we don't have any obvious 3rd seamer candidate. IMO, that logically means we need a 4 man seam attack to give us two options at that stage as they all have too many below par days while still being by far our best chance of winning test matches. Of course, having Bartin around messes with this a bit as he's definitely in the top four bowlers for now and I don't think he'd fit into a 5 man attack.
 

BackFootPunch

International 12th Man
Well this is why Vettori would be kinda handy. He could bat 7 (Watling at 6), then Butler/Bracewell, Southee, Wagner, Boult. I'd be happy with Butler playing in a 4-man seam attack.
 

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
Well this is why Vettori would be kinda handy. He could bat 7 (Watling at 6), then Butler/Bracewell, Southee, Wagner, Boult. I'd be happy with Butler playing in a 4-man seam attack.
That's assuming he could bat to the same standard we've known him for. His bowling is really past it and Williamson is proving to be a fine option. both Bracewell and Wagner in a four seamer front with Williamson throwing a few down is the best balance atm but I don't know how much they're crushing on Martin at the moment, so that might screw with that plan a bit.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
With regard to Butler, he's probably not going to get a crack because his period of form in this most recent season largely coincided with Wagner being away. Meaning Butler was the spearhead and got to run in and attack and look for wickets etc. He said during the season that the reason for his improved results was because he no longer had to play that containing role. I seem to remember him going for runs but getting plenty of wickets a lot of the time.

So, unless we want to use him as an opening bowler, I don't see him being suited to the role Wagner and Bracewell are currently competing for. In fairness, he'd probably do just as good a job as either of those two but I doubt he'd replicate the form he showed last season.
Butler may have been looking to be more attacking, but he almost never opened the bowling for Otago last season. Took a pile of wickets coming in first change, which is why I wouldn't be opposed to him trying the same thing at the international level. We've already got Southee and Bartin for the purposes of keeping things tight anyway.
 

BackFootPunch

International 12th Man
Butler may have been looking to be more attacking, but he almost never opened the bowling for Otago last season. Took a pile of wickets coming in first change, which is why I wouldn't be opposed to him trying the same thing at the international level. We've already got Southee and Bartin for the purposes of keeping things tight anyway.
Yeah I checked the scorecards after I'd posted and noticed the same thing. His economy was usually relatively high and he was generally bowling after either Wagner and Duffy or Soper and Duffy (2 young guys who also went for a few runs). So that, coupled with watching him bowl a bit for Otago this season, makes me think he was definitely bowling a fuller length than what PEWS suggested or, indeed, what you'd want out of a containing bowler.

Basically I think he ran in and bowled like he used to when he could bowl genuine heat and found that he still got wickets. Given that he's an infinitely more intelligent bowler since those days, he could probably still do the job. Just wouldn't have him in any sort of containing role.
 

BeeGee

International Captain
Wagner and Bracewell both in the wickets. Bit of a coin toss at this stage, but they'll probably stick with the incumbent.

Bartin continues to exceed expectations.

Bowling stocks look great. Middle order batting looks good. We just need our top order to find some form. The openers and Taylor, in particular.
 

Cabinet96

Global Moderator
Reckon they should play both of them, along with Southee, Boult and Martin against the Lions, and have that be the final bowl out.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Reckon they should play both of them, along with Southee, Boult and Martin against the Lions, and have that be the final bowl out.
Either that or rest Bruce Martin since he's bowled plenty of overs.

Wagner's always taken wickets at first class level. But maybe he is genuinely better with the duke.

Hesson was saying he was getting quite a bit of reverse. Good signs.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
"Doug Bracewell also produced a reminder of his own qualities later in the day. While his first spell lacked bite, Bracewell's latter spells rediscovered the pace he found in the first innings. Impressively strong, Bracewell looked too hot for some of the Derbyshire batsmen to handle and benefitted from two loose strokes outside off stump. He does not gain the swing of some of his colleagues - New Zealand have been practising with the Dukes ball for a month before arriving in the UK and look completely comfortable with it - but gains movement off the seam and has a little extra ability with the bat than Wagner"

So looks like the swing is still not back.

Wagner it is, IMO.
 

KungFu_Kallis

International 12th Man
Wagner and Bracewell both in the wickets. Bit of a coin toss at this stage, but they'll probably stick with the incumbent.

Bartin continues to exceed expectations.

Bowling stocks look great. Middle order batting looks good. We just need our top order to find some form. The openers and Taylor, in particular.
I can't see Martin getting any of the English top 7 out again, he fluked it when they played hilarious shots vs him first time round. Plus early season conditions ain't gonna suit him. I'd play all 4 quicks, a nice bit of variety there, and then use Kaino for the change up. It's just the more aggressive route which imo they need to take bigtime.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
well yeah, he also said that Gillespie was swinging it the most of all the bowlers.

I'd take a fully firing Gillespie over either of them tbh
 

BackFootPunch

International 12th Man
For the Lions game I reckon we play our ideal top 7 then Bracewell, Southee, Wagner and Boult. Martin has bowled well this game so we'll be right if we don't include him but need him later on.

I imagine the Lords surface dictates we'll probably need a spinner though? Tends to be quite slow iirc.
 

Cabinet96

Global Moderator
I can't see Martin getting any of the English top 7 out again, he fluked it when they played hilarious shots vs him first time round. Plus early season conditions ain't gonna suit him. I'd play all 4 quicks, a nice bit of variety there, and then use Kaino for the change up. It's just the more aggressive route which imo they need to take bigtime.
English batsman always throw their wickets away against spin, even if it's average straight breaks. Although admittedly, they do fare better in England.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
For the Lions game I reckon we play our ideal top 7 then Bracewell, Southee, Wagner and Boult. Martin has bowled well this game so we'll be right if we don't include him but need him later on.

I imagine the Lords surface dictates we'll probably need a spinner though? Tends to be quite slow iirc.
yeah this.

Also, while I agree that the English batsmen threw away their wickets in Dunedin, I thought he was genuinely on top in Wellington.
 

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