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*Official* New Zealand in Bangladesh Thread

bryce

International Regular
the problem with harris is that he is fairly reliable at home but can be very inconsistent when he is playing away.

Harris ODI's at Home:
94 matches, 1717 runs@34.34, 94 wickets@29.73, RPO:4.07

Harris ODI's Away from Home;
154 matches, 2658 runs@26.58, 109 wickets@44.20, RPO:4.41


tooextracool said:
because performances against b'desh dont prove anything, we've seen him succeed against quality attacks before. if he has scored runs against SA and pak recently, i find it hard to believe that his struggling against b'desh shows that he isnt good enough to play ODIs. more likely to do with a lack of form than anything else.
since when isn't it logical to drop players for loss of form ?
 

Mingster

State Regular
tooextracool said:
yes he did seem to be struggling around the tvs cup time. however after that he showed signs of rectifying it. he averaged 36 against pakistan which while not brilliant is still pretty good for someone who bats as low as him. against SA he averaged 77 and scored a match winning 55 at eden park. in his only other innings that he batted in he scored an unbeaten 22 and with papps carried the team through to victory.
after that he had one bad game in the natwest series, scored a 26 against australia when the team only managed 198.
Match winning 55? It wasn't match-winning. Our bowlers did an excellent job in containing the SA batsmen. He averaged 77 yes, and that was boosted by his not out....the average is from 2 innings as well. So getting 26 is good? I know the team batted crap, but that doesn't mean a 26 is acceptable, it's still below his career average. Harris' strike rate is very poor these days, and he doesn't suit what the team needs at 7 or 8. I can't believe people are still hyping up his ability to "find gaps and nudge it around", because a typical Harris innings now is all about either padding it away or playing around the pad and missing it.

Your summary of his innings are useless, the fact is that he has only averaged 20 in his past 10 matches and that is not good enough who is being selected as a batsman who can bowl if needed.


how many times do i have to say it? average is not what matters in ODIs, its the ER. Harris has never been a wicket taking bowler, hes been economical. and interestingly enough he has the best ER in the entire side.....which means his ER is better than oram's,cairns, styris vettori and everyone else.
I don't care about his career averages, it's all about his current form now. And Oram has a better RPO (3.85) than Harris in his last 10 matches.


because performances against b'desh dont prove anything, we've seen him succeed against quality attacks before. if he has scored runs against SA and pak recently, i find it hard to believe that his struggling against b'desh shows that he isnt good enough to play ODIs. more likely to do with a lack of form than anything else.
We have seen him succeed against quality attacks before? Even McMillan has had a few good ODI innings before! He scored against Pakistan and South Africa, hmmm yes, yet he still manages to average 20 in his last 10 matches. Him struggling against Bangladesh shows that he can't even put away average attacks let alone quality ones.
 

Dydl

International Debutant
Bangladesh have just about the weakest attack by far. At least Zimbabwe had a reasonable attack before the white players left. Their attack is better than Holland, at least, but that isn't such a great acheivement.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Mingster said:
Harris' bowling doesn't need replacing. Because he is useless with the ball these days anyway. A combination of Styris and Astle is enough for our slow bowlers
Except Astle doesn't bowl any more 8-)
 

bryce

International Regular
marc71178 said:
Except Astle doesn't bowl any more 8-)
he did bowl a couple of overs in one of the test matches and there wasn't any real need to bowl him in any of the 3 ODI's but if harris is left out for a batsman except astle to do some bowling.
 

anzac

International Debutant
ok I'll try to put the Harris situation in another light...........

afaic Harris was originally selected as an allrounder in the middle order, to bowl basically a full compliment of overs in a containment / frustration role, and because he was one of the best in close fieldsmen in the OD game.......

so far as his batting was concerned he was envisioned as being the NZL answer to Bevan & played much the same way. For me the highlight of the WC in IND was the match between NZL & AUS, which was dominated by those 2 with Bevan & AUS coming out with the honours.

However it has been noticeable that since the ICC Trophy in Kenya? that his batting has fallen away dramatically, in so much as he no longer appears capable of setting up a run chase, let alone dominating an innings. Furthermore & most crucially IMO he struggles to be able to get singles & rotate the strike - a former trademark of his batting.

For mind Marshall now performs this role in the batting lineup & Harris' batting glory days are a thing of the past, so far as being either a major contribution to the team performance or as consistency goes.

IMO his bowling has also gone downhill since the time of the WC in ENG. He used to bowl mainly swing mixed with those 'little doorknob quick offbreaks?', which made him hard to play. It appears to me that since that WC he has predominantly bowled his quick off breaks & only recently has started to bowl some seam upright again. Again, once the opposing batsman has got used to Harris pace off the pitch, it has been relatively easy for them to attack him as he has been limiting his type of delivery.

Finally his age is a factor in so much as he would be in his late 30's at the time of the next WC (along with Cairns), while Astle & Fleming will be past their mid 30's - IMO only the Captain has a realistic chance of being there, and primarily if he is still the Captain.

How does that song go - the old grey mare she ain't what she used to be..............yes he still has his uses but not as a first choice starter..........time to start to look to rebuild.........
 

anzac

International Debutant
bryce said:
he did bowl a couple of overs in one of the test matches and there wasn't any real need to bowl him in any of the 3 ODI's but if harris is left out for a batsman except astle to do some bowling.
I'm not going to hold my breath re Astle's bowling until I see it happen - IMO Astle is in the team to score runs & afaic he is doubtful to make the next WC along with several other ODI team members..........

rather than look to Astle to take up the slack re bowling I'd rather look to introduce / develop some options so far as potential replacements for the next WC...........
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
I see both McMillan & Styris were fined by the Match Referee in the 2nd ODI.
McMillan swore at the umpire after a poor lbw decision against him & Styris abused Ashraful after Styris had dismissed him.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
bryce said:
the problem with harris is that he is fairly reliable at home but can be very inconsistent when he is playing away.

Harris ODI's at Home:
94 matches, 1717 runs@34.34, 94 wickets@29.73, RPO:4.07

Harris ODI's Away from Home;
154 matches, 2658 runs@26.58, 109 wickets@44.20, RPO:4.41
those are still pretty decent figures, both home and away.

bryce said:
since when isn't it logical to drop players for loss of form ?
since forever? everybody undergoes a lack of form at some point in their careers, so would you drop everyone when they are out of form?
 

Macka

U19 Vice-Captain
anzac said:
Interesting that you'd still go for Flem to open after AUS - with a possible fit Papps & Co available???????

good to see you agree re 6 batsmen...........

I'd not pick Marshall at #3 - in fact until his domestic record improves I'd not have him in the team when the batsman has to make the pace.............he likes the ball coming onto the bat as per these ODI Day 3 type pitches......he's not done that well with the bat when he's had to make the pace..........I'd select him on harder pitches with more pace & bounce - but not low/slow or turning...........likewise with the likes of Vincent

& I'd not pick Sinclair for anything too green & someone else mentioned he has a weakness v spin so that means the likes of SRL, IND & PAK are doubtful.........although I'm not sure of the reasoning as he's not played in IND or PAK - only 2 innings each in BAN & SRL & he dined out v PAK when they were here in 2001??????

Personally I think they'll stick with the current lineup & 5-5 split until injury / retirement or something really drastic/dramatic happens.

I also have a sneaking suspicion that if Sinclair does open & fail v AUS then he's a sacraficial bunny & would be dropped from the SRL Tour squad to make way for Macca's return.............actually their averages are very similar both Home, Away & career.........yet not having seen Sinclair I'd say they bat nothing alike...............
Just a quick reply. I don't think Papps is quite ready for international cricket yet, he's a good prospect for the future for sure. I don't see any reason why Fleming can't open the innings, he's a good leaver, his technique has improved a lot recently, and most importantly, he did it against England with success.

I'm really not sure who is going to bat in the top order. In my view NZ needs to develop another top orders batsman for us to have more consistancy. Marshall is an option, as is Fulton. I think once NZ agrees on a lineup they should stick with it. Yes Marshall is poor on slow pitches and Sinclair isn't great on seemers - but I don't agree with the 'horses for courses approach'.

McMillan and Sinclair's batting is quite different but Sinclair is great to watch once he gets going.
 

Mingster

State Regular
tooextracool said:
since forever? everybody undergoes a lack of form at some point in their careers, so would you drop everyone when they are out of form?
That's what happened to McMillan and Harris over the past year along with Sinclair.

Harris has never been the NZ version of Bevan, he may have played a role similar to Bevan for one or few games, but not for long.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Mingster said:
Match winning 55? It wasn't match-winning. Our bowlers did an excellent job in containing the SA batsmen.
you do realise that harris was not only the top scorer in the entire side, but he actually scored twice as much as the 2nd highest scorer in the side? if it werent for harris, there isnt much doubt that SA would have won and won comfortable.

Mingster said:
He averaged 77 yes, and that was boosted by his not out....the average is from 2 innings as well.
yes i know, i said that, but the 22 not out was a decent innings in the circumstances, he and papps got NZ through. he didnt fail at all in that series one must remember.

Mingster said:
So getting 26 is good? I know the team batted crap, but that doesn't mean a 26 is acceptable, it's still below his career average. Harris' strike rate is very poor these days, and he doesn't suit what the team needs at 7 or 8. I can't believe people are still hyping up his ability to "find gaps and nudge it around", because a typical Harris innings now is all about either padding it away or playing around the pad and missing it.
getting 26 in the conditions and in the circumstances is certainly acceptable.
and yes harris isnt as good as he was before, i never said that he was, but id like to see him get more chances to decide whether or not he really doesnt deserve a place in the side or not.

Mingster said:
Your summary of his innings are useless, the fact is that he has only averaged 20 in his past 10 matches and that is not good enough who is being selected as a batsman who can bowl if needed.

I don't care about his career averages, it's all about his current form now. And Oram has a better RPO (3.85) than Harris in his last 10 matches.
10 games 10 games, hershelle gibbs has been averaging 23 this year(after 18 games), and considering that he offers nothing with the ball his case is actually a lot worse. should he be dropped too?
and one must remember that gibbs opens while harris bats down the order, which makes it all the more difficult for him to score runs.
as far as harris' ER is concerned, he has an ER of 4.05 this yr, its not brilliant given that he bowls mostly in the middle overs but certainly isnt bad enough to suggest that he should be dropped.



Mingster said:
We have seen him succeed against quality attacks before? Even McMillan has had a few good ODI innings before! He scored against Pakistan and South Africa, hmmm yes, yet he still manages to average 20 in his last 10 matches. Him struggling against Bangladesh shows that he can't even put away average attacks let alone quality ones.
if he cant even put away average attacks then how did he manage to score those runs against SA, was it all a miracle then? or when he averaged 40 odd in the vb series in 01-02?
hes only really had one bad series, if has another then yes he should be dropped.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Mingster said:
Actually, he does.

Again, another example you don't watch NZ play.
He's bowled 2 overs in a pressure-less Test (the first time he's bowled in almost 2 years) and a total of 2 overs in ODIs in pretty much the same time period.

That is not what I'd call a bowler.
 

Mingster

State Regular
But you said he "doesn't bowl" anymore, meaning I thought that Astle has retired from bowling.

tooextracool said:
if he cant even put away average attacks then how did he manage to score those runs against SA, was it all a miracle then? or when he averaged 40 odd in the vb series in 01-02?
hes only really had one bad series, if has another then yes he should be dropped.
Oh dear. Don't use statistics from way back in 2001/2, the past are the past and he won't get selected on the basis of those results. The fact is that, he couldn't put away average attacks even against Bangladesh, and he is in a terrible patch of form with his batting. Or are you suggesting Bangladesh isn't an average attack? Get him back into the domestic season, and gain confidence. So you want to wait for another 10 bad crap games before you drop him? Man are NZ lucky you ain't the selector.

In a full-strength side, Harris wouldn't be in it.

Fleming, Astle, Marshall, Styris, Sinclair, Cairns, McCullum, Oram, Vettori, Mills, Tuffey
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Mingster said:
Oh dear. Don't use statistics from way back in 2001/2, the past are the past and he won't get selected on the basis of those results. The fact is that, he couldn't put away average attacks even against Bangladesh, and he is in a terrible patch of form with his batting. Or are you suggesting Bangladesh isn't an average attack? Get him back into the domestic season, and gain confidence. So you want to wait for another 10 bad crap games before you drop him? Man are NZ lucky you ain't the selector.
its one series, have you ever heard of lack of form?ive shown you that hes been capable of scoring against quality sides, not too long ago.
and im glad you aint a SA selector, because you would have dropped gibbs a long time ago.


Mingster said:
In a full-strength side, Harris wouldn't be in it.

Fleming, Astle, Marshall, Styris, Sinclair, Cairns, McCullum, Oram, Vettori, Mills, Tuffey
i wouldnt exactly put sinclair in there as though hes a certainty.he has only been a miserable failure in ODIs so far......
 

anzac

International Debutant
Macka said:
Just a quick reply. I don't think Papps is quite ready for international cricket yet, he's a good prospect for the future for sure. I don't see any reason why Fleming can't open the innings, he's a good leaver, his technique has improved a lot recently, and most importantly, he did it against England with success.

I'm really not sure who is going to bat in the top order. In my view NZ needs to develop another top orders batsman for us to have more consistancy. Marshall is an option, as is Fulton. I think once NZ agrees on a lineup they should stick with it. Yes Marshall is poor on slow pitches and Sinclair isn't great on seemers - but I don't agree with the 'horses for courses approach'.

McMillan and Sinclair's batting is quite different but Sinclair is great to watch once he gets going.
I have some concerns re Papps 'forward press' on fast & bouncy pitches - esp as he isn't tall......not everyone agrees but that's ok.........

I agree re the Top Order - IMO we have Sinclair, Fulton & Marshall as options atm, with the likes of Taylor, Vincent & Stewart in the next tier..........

with 'horses for cources' I'm not advocating wholesale changes - just a player or two...........

just about everyone does it for their bowling attacks without even thinking about what they are doing - they retain the core of the attack & just bring in a specialist for the conditions (or the opposition), be it spin (wrist or finger), pace, bounce, RAO v LAO or swing.

I'd just apply the same philosophy to the batting - the core of the lineup should have the technical abilities to play on any surface, but some players excell in certain circumstances & may struggle in others , sometimes as a result of their style of play rather than any lack of ability - Marshall is a good case in point. His style is effective when the ball comes onto the bat, but is less so when he has to make the pace - if there is another player option available who does well in those circumstances then why not swap for the series????? We used to do it 20 years ago - the likes of John Reid from AUCK getting selected just to play in the sub-continent because of his ability to play spin bowling.........

For me it comes down to 2 primary questions - seam or spin, and then if it is seam - does the ball come onto the bat or not. So we are not looking for a great number of change options (3 types of batsmen), and consequently not a revolving door of players in / out of the team........(unless other circumstances dictate).....

IMO NZL batsmen are at a disadvantage because the domestic pitches are low & slow seam which is a minority so far as intnl conditions go, as it would appear that the ball comes onto the bat more often than not.........ENG, AUS, RSA & WIN would all have more pace & bounce of various degrees, the sub-continent is spin city, leaving just ZIM as a possible match for pace & bounce.

As a consequence some players that seem to excell at Home, struggle Away because of their style - Macca is twice the player at Home as he is Away, Vincent is the opposite. The ideal is obviously to have a player effective in all, but atm we do not have too many of those capable of making the sort of contributions that the 'specialists' can with any level of consistency. Hopefully we will be seeing an improvement in pitches & technical abilites to help brdige the gap etc..........

The other point to bear in mind with my 'horses for cources', is that I'm also calling for a 6-4 split in team selection - I agree that it is too disruptive to apply to the current 5-5 selection philosophy.
 

Macka

U19 Vice-Captain
tooextracool said:
i wouldnt exactly put sinclair in there as though hes a certainty.he has only been a miserable failure in ODIs so far......
Miserable? He hasn't been great but he's had his moments. I don't think he has been miserable.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
lol i'd define miserable as averaging 20 or less.
Sinclair's stats are respectable, certainly not miserable or crap.
 

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