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***Official NBA Thread***

duffer

duffer

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
No way is Big Ben a HOF player. He's an incredible hustle player and great defender but he's an atrocious scorer. Nowhere near the class of Shaq, Timmy and Garnett. Excellent ball player but it'd be like calling Nene a dominant big man.
 
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Sanz

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
duffer said:
No way is Big Ben a HOF player. He's an incredible hustle player and great defender but he's an atrocious scorer. Nowhere near the class of Shaq, Timmy and Garnett. Excellent ball player but it'd be like calling Nene a dominant big man.
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An argument can be made that Shaq, Duncan and KG were never as good defensively. IMO, the only reason Ben Wallace wouldn't be a HoF would be because of lack of longevity in his career. Between 2001-2007 (Detroit Years), he was a top player in NBA, if he had another 3-4 great years, he would walk in easily.
 
duffer

duffer

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You might as well rename it the Hall of Good then. Wallace has granite hands and couldn't finish a sandwhich He's way below average as a scoring centre. If he meets your criteria of a dominant big man then Gasol is comfortably one too. He's a far more complete basketball player than Ben will ever be. And the three you mentioned were elite defenders all throughout their peak.
 
Sanz

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
duffer said:
You might as well rename it the Hall of Good then. Wallace has granite hands and couldn't finish a sandwhich He's way below average as a scoring centre. If he meets your criteria of a dominant big man then Gasol is comfortably one too. He's a far more complete basketball player than Ben will ever be. And the three you mentioned were elite defenders all throughout their peak.
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Don't combine two different posts and make them as one argument.

Argument 1 - Ben Wallace was dominant force as a center in Detroit and major part of their success between 2002-2007. Paul Gasol has never been as dominant as Ben Wallace. As for being a complete player, well that doesn't mean much Olajuwan was a far complete player than Jordan, O'Neal or for that matter anyone I have seen play. What does that prove ? Olajuwan used to have O'Neal, Robinson, Ewing etc for Dinner.

Argument 2 - Ben Wallace can have a good shot at HoF and only thing IMO that would stop him would be his lack of Great years. While I have not seen much of Bad Boys of Detroit's 80s team, Does Dumars really belong in the category of the hall of famers. Eitherway, IMO he is not a certainty, but definately has a chance.
 
duffer

duffer

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Wallace was a great defender and hustle player but nowhere near the category of dominant C because he was incredibly limited as a ball player. He provided nothing on offence apart from allowing a guilt free double team on one of his shooters. Gasol is an excellent defender, especially in the post, elite rebounder and can score on you any way he wants. He is a far superior player. So therefore if Wallace qualifies as a dominant big man then Gasol would easily.

As for your second argument. You are lobbying for a guy who struggled to catch the ball at times as a HOFer just because he played on some excellent teams where he fit into the system perfectly? Lol, your revisionism cracks me up big time.
 
Sanz

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
duffer said:
Wallace was a great defender and hustle player but nowhere near the category of dominant C because he was incredibly limited as a ball player. He provided nothing on offence apart from allowing a guilt free double team on one of his shooters. Gasol is an excellent defender, especially in the post, elite rebounder and can score on you any way he wants. He is a far superior player. So therefore if Wallace qualifies as a dominant big man then Gasol would easily.
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No, Gasol is as soft as they come. Very Good Scorer, average defender, more complete player than Ben Wallace, perhaps yes. Is he a better player than Wallace of Detroit pistons, NO.

As for your second argument. You are lobbying for a guy who struggled to catch the ball at times as a HOFer just because he played on some excellent teams where he fit into the system perfectly? Lol, your revisionism cracks me up big time.
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If I am overstating the guy, you are heavily underplaying him. Just a Hussle player who got lucky, Huh ? :-



  • First Team: 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006
  • Second Team: 2007

  • 5-time All-NBA:

  • Second Team: 2003, 2004, 2006
  • Third Team: 2002, 2005

  • 2-time NBA regular-season leader, rebounds per game: 2002 (13.0), 2003 (15.4)
  • NBA regular-season leader, blocks per game: 2002 (3.5)
  • 2-time NBA regular-season leader, total rebounds: 2001 (1052), 2003 (1026)
  • NBA regular-season leader, total defensive rebounds: 2001 (749)
  • 2-time NBA regular-season leader, total offensive rebounds: 2003 (293), 2006 (301)
  • NBA regular-season leader, total blocks: 2002 (278)

NBA records, achievements and milestones


  • Only player in NBA history to record 1,000 rebounds, 100 blocks, and 100 steals in 4 consecutive seasons (2001-04).[6]
  • One of three players in NBA history to record 150 blocks and 100 steals in 7 consecutive seasons (2001-07) (along with Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson).[6][11][12]
  • One of five players in NBA history to lead the NBA in rebounding and blocking averages in the same season (along with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Walton, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Dwight Howard).
  • One of three players in NBA history to average 15 rebounds and 3 blocks per game over a season (along with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bob McAdoo).
  • Only undrafted player in NBA history to be voted a starter for the NBA All-Star Game.
  • One of two players in NBA history to receive NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award 4 times (along with Dikembe Mutombo).
  • Ranks 17th all-time in blocked shots (1946)* in NBA history[13]
  • Ranks 22nd all-time in offensive rebounds (2984)* in NBA history[14]
  • Ranks 24th all-time in defensive rebounds (6269)* in NBA history[15]
  • Ranks 41st all-time in total rebounds (9253)* in NBA history[16]
  • Ranks 73rd all-time in total steals (1182)* in NBA history[17]
* As of March 9, 2009

Detroit Pistons franchise records (15)


  • Most blocked shots, all-time: 1,297 (2000–2006)
  • Most blocked shots in
  • Highest blocks-per-game average, one season: 3.48 (2001-02)
  • Most defensive rebounds, one quarter: 10 (November 18, 2002 vs. New York Knicks).
  • Most rebounds, one half, playoffs: 17 (Game 4, 2003 Eastern Conference First Round)
  • Most rebounds, one quarter, playoffs: 13 (Game 4, 2003 Eastern Conference First Round)
  • Most offensive rebounds, one game, playoffs: 11 (Game 3, 2004 Eastern Conference Semifinals)
  • Most offensive rebounds, one half, playoffs: 7 (Game 3, 2004 Eastern Conference Semifinals)
  • Most defensive rebounds, one game, playoffs: 17 (Game 1, 2003 Eastern Conference Finals)
  • Most defensive rebounds, one half, playoffs: 12 (Game 1, 2003 Eastern Conference Finals)
  • Most defensive rebounds, one quarter, playoffs: 9 (Game 1, 2003 Eastern Conference Finals)
  • Most steals, one game, playoffs: 7 (Game 4, 2003 Eastern Conference First Round)
 
duffer

duffer

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Oh wow you copied and pasted a whole lot of stats. And hilariously enough most of the things he has excelled in on that list (rebounding, blocks, steals) are hustle stats. I've already said he was a great defender but doesn't qualify as a dominant centre in the mould of Duncan, Shaq and KG because they could dominate you anywhere on the court at anytime. Something Ben could never do, like I said he was a great hustle player who had forwards playing with him who complimented him perfectly.

And Gasol an average defender? Soft? Did you watch any of the Denver series? Martin, Anderson and Nene went right for him and were as dirty as they come yet he still killed them. Kobe scored the ball well but Pau is who got the dirty work done in that series. He answered a whole heap of questions regarding his toughness last series.
 
Hoggy31

Hoggy31

International Captain
Big Ben was great, but if he gets in it's open season. You can make a case for a lot of these good-great players.
 
Sanz

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
duffer said:
And Gasol an average defender? Soft? Did you watch any of the Denver series? Martin, Anderson and Nene went right for him and were as dirty as they come yet he still killed them. Kobe scored the ball well but Pau is who got the dirty work done in that series. He answered a whole heap of questions regarding his toughness last series.
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I watched the Lakers-Celtics NBA Finals. Soft is the word to describe him. I haven't watched Lakers this year, he may have improved this year and we will see in the finals again. Not that it is going to prove much unless he shows it consistently for rest of his career.
 
Sanz

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
duffer said:
Oh wow you copied and pasted a whole lot of stats. And hilariously enough most of the things he has excelled in on that list (rebounding, blocks, steals) are hustle stats. I've already said he was a great defender but doesn't qualify as a dominant centre in the mould of Duncan, Shaq and KG because they could dominate you anywhere on the court at anytime. Something Ben could never do, like I said he was a great hustle player who had forwards playing with him who complimented him perfectly. .
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I am not saying that he is equivalent to Shaq, KG, TD overall, just like KG, Shaq, TD are not in the league of Kareem and Olajuwon. Ben Wallace is easily ahead of them (shq et al) as a Defensive player. You can't just count out his defensive skills by calling him as a 'Hustle' player. He is a great player Denis Rodman type. Shaq and Duncan were always surrounded by Great players around them, so don't make it sound as if they were winning championships by themselves.
 
duffer

duffer

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Sanz said:
I am not saying that he is equivalent to Shaq, KG, TD overall, just like KG, Shaq, TD are not in the league of Kareem and Olajuwon. Ben Wallace is easily ahead of them (shq et al) as a Defensive player. You can't just count out his defensive skills by calling him as a 'Hustle' player. He is a great player Denis Rodman type. Shaq and Duncan were always surrounded by Great players around them, so don't make it sound as if they were winning championships by themselves.
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I never denied he was a great defender but I feel you putting him that far ahead of the other guys defensively (especially Duncan who is an outstanding defender in all aspects) is incorrect. He just doesn't have the overall impact to be considered a "dominant centre" like was claimed.

Not sure how big a sample space you are using to differentiate Hakeem that far ahead of Duncan and Shaq but I believe the difference between them is negligible in most aspects. As far as efficiency in play goes, no-one can touch Duncan in the way he is so effective and in the way he's locked down his fundamentals better than anyone I've seen. I think that's wrong by saying he isn't in the league of the other great big men when he has a strong case for being one of the greatest of all time.

I could get into a Duncan v Shaq v Hakeem debate with you but we might as well kill the thread then. Suffice to say the difference between these guys was not that big in most aspects. Kareem, Russel and Wilt were on another level imo but that's neither here nor there.
 
Anil

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
Sanz said:
An argument can be made that Shaq, Duncan and KG were never as good defensively. IMO, the only reason Ben Wallace wouldn't be a HoF would be because of lack of longevity in his career. Between 2001-2007 (Detroit Years), he was a top player in NBA, if he had another 3-4 great years, he would walk in easily.
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duncan and garnett are as good or better defensively...shaq is probably not as good at the defensive end...big ben has 4 defensive player of the year awards and a ring, that's a pretty good record but hall of fame...i am not so sure he belongs...
 
Anil

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
duffer said:
And heh @ you getting so butthurt by someone criticising Kobe for anything. I'm just applying the same standard that you applied to Howard. The action was the same even if the end result was different.
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yeah right, it takes a lot more than a criticism of kobe to get me riled up, it's not even in my list of priorities...:)
 
Anil

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
Sanz said:
Oh Common now. I am a big Kobe fan and want him to win but he gets away with a lot of elbowing stuff. Just because No one has had his nose broken doesn't mean Kobe doesn't elbow. He is as cheap as they come. All great players get away with elbowing and Kobe is a great player. Some of those aren't even called.

YouTube - Kobe Bryant Elbows Manu Ginobili

YouTube - Phantom Elbow - Kobe/Raja

YouTube - Kobe Bryant Elbow To Ron Artest Throat..NBA Playoffs Los Angeles Lakers vs. Houston Rockets
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you said it yourselves, and where did i say bryant didn't do it, my point was all the tough ones in the nba become really physical especially later in the season as the stakes increase, but when a big man like howard thrashes around on court like a bull in a china shop, something is bound to break and it did, if he doesn't realize his size and strength and plays accordingly, he is irresponsible, there's no two ways about it...
 
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