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***Official***Match #32 - New Zealand vs South Africa - November 1st - Pune (D/N)

thierry henry

International Coach
Just playing devils advocate here cos not sure the toss decision is as bad as your all making out......without the benefit of hindsight of course.

NZ normally chase well yeah and you've got a pretty decent attack? One of the top 3 sides in the tourney to date........should that side be approaching a game worried about what the opposition might do to them or should they be focused on what they're going to do to the opposition?

Obviously it didn't work out but im feeling it was a confident call and possibly not reasonable to be attracting as much criticism as it is?
I guess you could argue that playing to our strengths is confidence, but in this case I think it’s more a ‘what do we fear less’ thing. I think we have a lot more historical anxiety around being helpless against an onslaught when defending a total, than we do about chasing a total. Still feels like more of a fear-based thing than a confident thing.
 

thierry henry

International Coach
FWIW I don’t think we have any keeper/bat who is demonstrably better than Latham, unless you look to Conway or Phillips, and whether they are genuine options as keepers is unclear.

Blundell’s a maybe who is 18 months older than Latham.
 

Howsie

International Captain
Latham was the correct selection but as I've said before, after the tournament we need to look ahead to 2027. We can always SOS him in 2027 if we don't have an answer by then.
He really wasn’t. It’s 2023 and we’re playing a World Cup in India, it was always going to be a run fest. What other top class teams out there are picking a number 5 who at best will score at around 100 if he gets going and has next to no ability to clear the fence?

New Zealand in Latham have picked a nuggety innings rebuilder type when they literally have a gun top 4 with 3 guys all averaging over 45 and proven world class players. He provides nothing to this team if they play the way they’re suppose to. He’s proven over the course of a decade he useless against good pace bowling too so when we come up against the Australia’s and South Africa’s of this world at the backend he’s done for
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
He really wasn’t. It’s 2023 and we’re playing a World Cup in India, it was always going to be a run fest. What other top class teams out there are picking a number 5 who at best will score at around 100 if he gets going and has next to no ability to clear the fence?

New Zealand in Latham have picked a nuggety innings rebuilder type when they literally have a gun top 4 with 3 guys all averaging over 45 and proven world class players. He provides nothing to this team if they play the way they’re suppose to. He’s proven over the course of a decade he useless against good pace bowling too so when we come up against the Australia’s and South Africa’s of this world at the backend he’s done for
Who would you have as keeper?
 

thierry henry

International Coach
He really wasn’t. It’s 2023 and we’re playing a World Cup in India, it was always going to be a run fest. What other top class teams out there are picking a number 5 who at best will score at around 100 if he gets going and has next to no ability to clear the fence?

New Zealand in Latham have picked a nuggety innings rebuilder type when they literally have a gun top 4 with 3 guys all averaging over 45 and proven world class players. He provides nothing to this team if they play the way they’re suppose to. He’s proven over the course of a decade he useless against good pace bowling too so when we come up against the Australia’s and South Africa’s of this world at the backend he’s done for
This is mostly pretty reasonable but you seem to be assessing/comparing Latham with other specialist batsmen as opposed to NZ’s alternative wicket keepers
 

TheJediBrah

Request Your Custom Title Now!
He really wasn’t. It’s 2023 and we’re playing a World Cup in India, it was always going to be a run fest. What other top class teams out there are picking a number 5 who at best will score at around 100 if he gets going and has next to no ability to clear the fence?

New Zealand in Latham have picked a nuggety innings rebuilder type when they literally have a gun top 4 with 3 guys all averaging over 45 and proven world class players. He provides nothing to this team if they play the way they’re suppose to. He’s proven over the course of a decade he useless against good pace bowling too so when we come up against the Australia’s and South Africa’s of this world at the backend he’s done for
"other" top class? You think NZ are top class?
 

Howsie

International Captain
Who would you have as keeper?
This is mostly pretty reasonable but you seem to be assessing/comparing Latham with other specialist batsmen as opposed to NZ’s alternative wicket keepers
Yeah tbf the other options aren’t great, I realise that. But we are seriously wasting Phillips down at 6. He should be playing at 5, Chapman at 6 and our keeper at 7 (if Conway isn’t up to taking the gloves).

Cleaver, Seifert and Fletcher are all good strikers of the ball. A 20 ball 40 from any of them isn’t going to shock anyone they all have the power to do that.

If Latham was batting 3 (would need a better average obviously) i probably wouldn’t mind him. But at 5, with who comes before and after him I just feel like he’s a waste of a player in this team.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
SA are looking pretty good. What a thumping win this was! India vs SA on Sunday should be a cracker. Either that or an anti-climax.
 

Moss

International Vice-Captain
"other" top class? You think NZ are top class?
Ha ha. Well given the core of this side has been around since the 2015 WC, that’s 3 finals and 2 semifinals across white ball tournaments, yes. This is probably a tournament too far though.
 

Skyliner

International 12th Man

‘A team which had made scores of 428-5, 311-7, 399-7 and 382-5 batting first previously in the tournament looked a gift horse in the mouth and saw its choppers were incredibly healthy as their in-form batters pumped the New Zealand attack in making 357-4 on their way to a 190-run victory-romp.

The NZ captain immediately came in for the sort of derision levelled at Wayne Barnes and the TMO for their role in the Rugby World Cup final won by the Springboks over the All Blacks.’



‘Latham spoke of execution following the loss, which had a dramatic impact on New Zealand’s net run-rate ahead of Saturday’s showdown with Pakistan. That’s taking things way too far, but it did still seem a punishable offence.’
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
I think ripping into the Latham selection too hard is hindsight bias, it seemed very reasonable prior to the tournament. Sometimes you make the right call and it still goes wrong.
No not at all I'm not ripping into his selection, I'm sure I said I thought he'd be very good for a subcontinent World Cup and I even said he would've been worth considering for the World T20 in India. And I still don't think he should be dropped or shouldn't have been picked.

But I think he's in the way of Phillips. I know GP is a gun at the death but he could also play a match-winning 80 for you, where Tom I just don't see that coming from.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
He really wasn’t. It’s 2023 and we’re playing a World Cup in India, it was always going to be a run fest. What other top class teams out there are picking a number 5 who at best will score at around 100 if he gets going and has next to no ability to clear the fence?

New Zealand in Latham have picked a nuggety innings rebuilder type when they literally have a gun top 4 with 3 guys all averaging over 45 and proven world class players. He provides nothing to this team if they play the way they’re suppose to. He’s proven over the course of a decade he useless against good pace bowling too so when we come up against the Australia’s and South Africa’s of this world at the backend he’s done for
I do appreciate Howsie's ability to find the other angles and to be fair, this isn't a bad analysis at all. He did have the match-winning 145 against India (yes, Eden Park so small) and a 98 off 85 in Pakistan, but also in that series he had a couple of knocks that didn't fit the required run rate, and quite a few failures around those scores. Even if he is the best guy for now, his spot in ODIs should be up for review after this tournament.
 

Molehill

International Captain
Just playing devils advocate here cos not sure the toss decision is as bad as your all making out......without the benefit of hindsight of course.

NZ normally chase well yeah and you've got a pretty decent attack? One of the top 3 sides in the tourney to date........should that side be approaching a game worried about what the opposition might do to them or should they be focused on what they're going to do to the opposition?

Obviously it didn't work out but im feeling it was a confident call and possibly not reasonable to be attracting as much criticism as it is?
Nah, it was daft when Buttler did it and downright idiotic for Latham to follow suit. Teams who bat first are generally winning their games more comfortably than those who bat 2nd (apart from India who are just comfortably beating everyone). And we all know what SA prefer.

It was a stinker.
 

Molehill

International Captain
SA are looking pretty good. What a thumping win this was! India vs SA on Sunday should be a cracker. Either that or an anti-climax.
Important game, whoever wins will probably top the table. Coming 2nd almost certainly means you play the Aussies, topping the table means NZ/Pak/Afghan.
 

Moss

International Vice-Captain
Just playing devils advocate here cos not sure the toss decision is as bad as your all making out......without the benefit of hindsight of course.

NZ normally chase well yeah and you've got a pretty decent attack? One of the top 3 sides in the tourney to date........should that side be approaching a game worried about what the opposition might do to them or should they be focused on what they're going to do to the opposition?

Obviously it didn't work out but im feeling it was a confident call and possibly not reasonable to be attracting as much criticism as it is?
Mentioned this in an earlier post, but I think quite a few observers (and more importantly NZ themselves) overestimate the effectiveness of their attack in these conditions, against the top batting sides at least. Especially considering they play 4 specialists plus part timers, and there are fitness issues to boot. The tactic worked against England, but they're not going to restrict India/Australia/South Africa to 280 or below that easily. No shame in that, 350+ scores are the norm, but I don't think you should be repeatedly putting yourself in a position to chase that much if you get to decide. In Dharamsala it was because they thought the early morning conditions would aid movement, in Pune because of the dew, both were miscalculations.
 
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