*Official* England Squad Thread

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

So because he had a slightly poor game on his International debut in comparison to his excellent form for Everton in the whole of last season, you don't rate him as an England option? Pretty strange logic there. He was excellent last season, and having watched a lot of him I'm of the belief that he's definitely international class, and it'd take more than a few good games from Campbell at Arsenal for him to get a call-up. Jagielka would be a far better option.

Mate, Ashley Cole isn't an England option either, because he's many moor poor games, that weren't even on debut. Sound logic IMO.

 

[aussie]

Really? Is this the same player who kept Torres in his back pocket for the whole of the Cup game last year?

Yea but then couldn't handle Villa in the friendly againts Spain. Like Cricket doemstic form doesn't always = international success.

And Anelka? In some esteemed company there.

So what you saying Anelka current form doesn't merit him being considered one of the best strikers in the world ATM.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Yea but then couldn't handle Villa in the friendly againts Spain. Like Cricket doemstic form doesn't always = international success.

But you just mentioned Torres. Why qualify it with Villa? Villa Law now?
Make up your mind!

 

[aussie]

If King was needed, both JT and Ferdinand would be out, as I'd say Upson's ahead of him in the pecking order. What happens if we have injuries or a multiple game suspension, and lose both first choice centre backs? It's not exactly likely, but it could happen, and if it did then we'd be screwed, as King would not be able to play 2 consecutive games in a tournament like the WC, due to his dodgy knees. I'm also a bit hesitant of picking a bloke that isn't even fit enough to train with the side as well.

- Both wont be out. My perfect ENG combo if King was fully fit would be him & Rio all these years. Two strong pacy defenders.

- Upson is ahead of him in the pecking order yea. But King is still better & would back him ahead of Upson in a clash againts Brazil, Spain etc..

- That scenario could indeed happen & ENG would be screwed. But i'm willing to wager regardless of some the worst injury woes ENG have had in recent years, that wouldn't happen. I dont expect King to go at the end of the day, but i certainly do think Capello still has an eye on him.

So because he had a slightly poor game on his International debut in comparison to his excellent form for Everton in the whole of last season, you don't rate him as an England option? Pretty strange logic there.

That was just one half of a season before he got injured. He was pretty mediorce before then in general in the league. We dont know if it was a genuine turning of the corner for Jagielka that he may have contiued to improve on well into this season if he wasn't injured - or it was just a little peak period. I certainly think its the latter based on watching him.

He was excellent last season, and having watched a lot of him I'm of the belief that he's definitely international class, and it'd take more than a few good games from Campbell at Arsenal for him to get a call-up. Jagielka would be a far better option.

Dont agree would definately have Campbelll ahead of him for reasons afromentioned. Plus even Brown technically should be ahead of Jagielka (although both are comparable as defenders) in that squad you picked, given that Wes can give back-up to Johnson @ RB.

 

[aussie]

But you just mentioned Torres. Why qualify it with Villa? Villa Law now?
Make up your mind!

If him handling Torres in a one-off game was a clear sign that he could be international quality, he should have handled Villa a player of similar quality to Torres better in the friendly. He didn't.

Even Wes Brown handled Eto'o & Messi well when United played Barca in the CL semi-final legs 07/08. But you don't see me calling him a sure international quality centre-back..

 

[GIMH]

Can we get two threads, one where everyone argues with aussie and then another for everyone to talk about England? As this is sapping the life out of me

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I love the way that a player's debut, against the best team in the world, is definitive proof of his quality. I also love the way that Villa and Torres are being equated, but then not really.

 

[Pizzorno]

GOAL-KEEPERS:

1. Green
2. Hart
3. Robinson

DEFENDERS:

4. Terry (c)
5. Jagielka
6. Baines
7. Cahill
8. A Cole
9. Glen Johnson
10. Roger Johnson

MID-FIDLERS:

11. Gerrard
12. Lampard
13. Barry
14. Milner
15. Carrick
16. J Cole
17. Walcott
18. Lennon
19. Beckham

STRIKERS:

20. Rooney
21. Heskey
22. Agbonlahor
23. Defoe

We really are buggered upfront. And aussie give over; Jagielka is the second best English centre back available.

 

[aussie]

I love the way that a player's debut, against the best team in the world, is definitive proof of his quality.

Ledley King is his first game (not debut) againts a quality France team in Euro 2004 was super impressive FYI.

Of course players can improve overtime after poor/average starts. But for now based on what i've seen of Jaigelka i dont believe he is international quality nor should be make the WC squad. There is always EURO 2012 & qualifiers for him though to potentially further himself..

GeraintIsMyHero Can we get two threads, one where everyone argues with aussie and then another for everyone to talk about England? As this is sapping the life out of me

Dont worry uncle GIMH, i'm always ready for a quote war its the only reason i'm on this site, i am very comfrontation in life. So arguing CW style with people suits me..

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Ledley King is his first game (not debut) againts a quality France team in Euro 2004 was super impressive FYI.

And?

Fail.

 

[aussie]

And?

And he was excellent. So you can't use/suggest that because Jaigelka had a rough international baptism againts Spain that it isn't a definite proof of whether is he international quality ATM or not. Since others have done it on the first attempt before..

Fail.

Pass again..

 

[Pizzorno]

What's this about him having a bad game against Spain anyway? He played solidly for 45 minutes until at the end of the half when the entire team got rinsed for the goal.

 

[aussie]

Didn't look too impressive in that half at all. If he did i reckon Capello MAY have given him the full 90 minutes.

When we played Spain @ Old Trafford in early 07 in another friendly. You compare how Woodgate fared againts the Spanish he was very competent, while Jaigelka wasn't in the 09 friendly.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

And he was excellent. So you can't use/suggest that because Jaigelka had a rough international baptism againts Spain that it isn't a definite proof of whether is he international quality ATM or not.

...er...I know that (and that's why I made the point), but do you?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

When we played Spain @ Old Trafford in early 07 in another friendly. You compare how Woodgate fared againts the Spanish he was very competent, while Jaigelka wasn't in the 09 friendly.

Really? Are you serious?

First you say you can't judge a player definitively based on an isolated performance. Then you're judging Jagielka as poor, and his isolated performance as inexcusable. And your basis for this is that Woodgate did well against an inferior Spanish team? So many flaws in this argument.

And just to pre-empt your next response, I'd like to you justify just how Spain '07 was as good as Spain '09. Because you'd be wrong.

 

[aussie]

...er...I know that (and that's why I made the point), but do you?

I clearly do thats why i just made the point with the Ledley King vs France @ Euro 04 example. The intial point you made, you where clearly sarcastically debating/denying (whichever terms suits) that point:

I love the way that a player's debut, against the best team in the world, is definitive proof of his quality.

Really? Are you serious?

100% serious.

First you say you can't judge a player definitively based on an isolated performance.

Yes because the player can improve. But ATM IMO Jagielka is still is not a international quality centre-half, just a good premiership player.

Then you're judging Jagielka as poor, and his isolated performance as inexcusable.

Yes because right now he is not international quality - watching that game seeing it any other way is totally wrong IMO. Many ENG players have been writtern off as joke/not internationality after being 1 game coming off decent runs in the premiership. Players Joey Barton, Nick Shorey, Jermaine Jenas, Warnock, Downing (although this could change in the future), Carson, Lescott, Parker, (although i still rate him to a level), Darius Vassell, Danny Mills, Franics Jeffers immediately comes to mind. Some of these players played/has played more than they should. But ATM Jaigelka is clealry in this group AFAIC..

And your basis for this is that Woodgate did well against an inferior Spanish team?

Spain in 07 that ENG played is only inferior to Spain 09 when it comes when it comes to confidence to win big matches.

Both team where still way superior to ENG in the respectively friendlies. Woodgate a regularly crooked defender looking like international quality vs Spain 07 compared to Jaigelka (who was in excellent league form before looking below international quality in the Spain 09 friendly) - thats says it all...

So many flaws in this argument.

No flaws whatsoever. In many discussions of late you seem to have a issue with understanding why Player A is bad/could be bad in future, based on performances of Player B who was in the past. Of course it doesn't always work this, but you got to understand the circumstances..

This is Snape vs Schofield all over again

To re-empt your response here...i presume you will call this the "Woodgate-Law"? hAA

And just to pre-empt your next response, I'd like to you justify just how Spain '07 was as good as Spain '09. Because you'd be wrong.

See above. I never tried to equate that Spain 07 was as good as Spain 09, i dont see how you read it that way..

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Schofield Law & Villa/Woodgate Law. That is all.

 

[sledger]

Can we get two threads, one where everyone argues with aussie and then another for everyone to talk about England? As this is sapping the life out of me

Haha, quite in favour of this idea actually. Got to enjoy how Camps has been owning him for the last several pages though, seeing Camps in a whole new light

 

[Jarquis]

Really can't be bother to read through all the aussie trip but let me get this right, did he suggest that Jagielka was not International quality based on one debateably poor performance on debut and then disregard his performance against Torres because it was only one game?

 

[aussie]

Haha, quite in favour of this idea actually. Got to enjoy how Camps has been owning him for the last several pages though, seeing Camps in a whole new light

Just like how i owned your suggestion that Milner should go the WC ahead of Carrick & that Beckham would be a good option to play centre-midfield? It must be strong deja vu for you then..