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***Official*** Australia in South Africa 2018

SeamUp

International Coach
Think that a number commentated on the cricket as it ended... but not much to say. SA did not bat or bowl well in the first innings, seniors need to stand up. Will we play Mulder/Bavuma/de Bruyn at #6 in PE and will Morkel keep his place? Aus played well, but nothing amazing, unlikely to change anything.
Was every innings 160/5 in the match ?

Tail order runs are so crucial to the top teams and we've been pretty good at it for a while before this test.

Faf sort of highlighted this and they let themselves down letting Australia get away in first innings.

Not going to defend the batting though.
 
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Bolo

State Captain
I've said exactly that twice. I also said that I don't really even like him that much, I think he's overrated by almost everyone. I'm not constructing a straw man, you're just not paying any attention to anything I'm saying.
Straw man= you constructing a weak argument and attributing it to my position:

As I said, you wouldn't even consider this "weakness" if he was simply worse at getting out tailenders
I've shown you why this is not true using my actual opinion on the matter, showing what I consider to be important (which happens to coincide with what you believe), not what you are saying I believe.

He has plenty of weaknesses, he's no where near the best bowler in the world IMO, but the weakness you've picked out is all in your imagination. He's no worse against the middle order than most other fast bowlers. He's just not that good a bowler to be averaging low-20s in general, not just against the middle order.
He is very, very good with the swinging ball. Definitely the best going with reverse ATM. Possibly the most dangerous with conventional, whether or not he's the best.

I think he is currently (at a minimum) close to the best swing bowler (combining conventional and reverse). You think he is far from the best bowler. These views are incompatible unless he is very far from the best bowler when the ball is not swinging, which you are arguing against. Do you not think he's at least somewhere close to the best when the ball is swinging?
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
Was every innings 160/5 in the match ?

Tail order runs are so crucial to the top teams and we've been pretty good at it for a while before this test.

Faf sort of highlighted this and they let themselves down letting Australia get away in first innings.

Not going to defend the batting though.
I think we let Aus get at least 50+ more runs in the first innings, our tail is a bit hit and miss really. I really don't trust them to get more than 50 runs, but a bit harsh considering how well Starc bowled with the reversing ball. Our top order were just not good enough... don't think the Aus top order really covered themselves in glory either though.
 

Debris

International 12th Man
Sarwan did not know McGrath's wife had cancer. He only asked McGrath to make the same inquiry to his wife as McGrath made to him.

In the unwritten canons of cricket, there's no obligation on the part of the sledgee to make inquires about the state of health of the sledgor's spouse, when retorting to a sledge.
It stretches incredulity a bit to believe that Sarwan did not know. McGrath missed the first two tests because of it and the story was plastered everywhere.

Glenn McGrath to return to West Indies, subject to Jane McGrath's health | Cricket | ESPNcricinfo
 

Bolo

State Captain
Starc basically removed the optio for SA’s tail to wag. Was just unplayable
I don't think it would take him too long to remove the top bowling like that. Tailenders, fresh to the crease and facing that bowling are not going to survive. The RSA tail almost always gives a bit of a wag, but no tail will wag against that.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
It stretches incredulity a bit to believe that Sarwan did not know. McGrath missed the first two tests because of it and the story was plastered everywhere.

Glenn McGrath to return to West Indies, subject to Jane McGrath's health | Cricket | ESPNcricinfo
I suspect he knew beforehand, but he probably wasn't thinking about it at the time. It's a pretty generic retort to what McGrath asked him, and I don't think the cancer really made it worse per se other than that she was arguably more off limits than usual.
 

TheJediBrah

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Straw man= you constructing a weak argument and attributing it to my position:



I've shown you why this is not true using my actual opinion on the matter, showing what I consider to be important (which happens to coincide with what you believe), not what you are saying I believe.



He is very, very good with the swinging ball. Definitely the best going with reverse ATM. Possibly the most dangerous with conventional, whether or not he's the best.

I think he is currently (at a minimum) close to the best swing bowler (combining conventional and reverse). You think he is far from the best bowler. These views are incompatible unless he is very far from the best bowler when the ball is not swinging, which you are arguing against. Do you not think he's at least somewhere close to the best when the ball is swinging?
You're right in that I don't disagree with most of your reasoning, but it's the entire assumption that "he's not as good against middle order" as other bowlers that is just not true.

In case you missed:

% of Wickets taken that were batsmen no. 4-7:

Starc = 34.1%
Philander = 34.0%
Morkel = 34.7%
Hazelwood = 34%

Steyn = 35.6%
Glenn McGrath = 34.8%
The entire discussion is based on a false statement
 

GotSpin

Hall of Fame Member
Was every innings 160/5 in the match ?

Tail order runs are so crucial to the top teams and we've been pretty good at it for a while before this test.

Faf sort of highlighted this and they let themselves down letting Australia get away in first innings.

Not going to defend the batting though.
SA were 4/45 in the second dig. Not exactly showering themselves in glory for a chase.

QDK (potentially) getting back into form should be a serious highlight though. He was a real burden during the Indian series
 

SeamUp

International Coach
I think Faf was more disappointed about letting Mitch Marsh, Paine, Cummins and Starc build partnerships.

More along the lines of we have to find ways to not let their lower order stretch it out as much as Australia did.

Shock pace bowlers. Quick arm action or slingy always brilliant for lower orders. It's probably Rabada vs Starc/Cummins for us in this last test.

Not even going to go into reverse as thats next level difficulty. We've seen Steyn do it in Asia over the years. But for some reason Durban finds us out even with Steyn. Remember Briad reversing England to victory once in Durban.
 
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SeamUp

International Coach
Aussies were calling de Kock a "Bush Pig" and got personal about his mother and sister according to Netwerk24 and The Guardian. :D
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
I think Faf was more disappointed about letting Mitch Marsh, Paine, Cummins and Starc build partnerships.

More along the lines of we have to find ways to not let their lower order stretch it out as much as Australia did.

Shock pace bowlers. Quick arm action or slingy always brilliant for lower orders. It's probably Rabada vs Starc/Cummins for us in this last test.

Not even going to go into reverse as thats next level difficulty. We've seen Steyn do it in Asia over the years. But for some reason Durban finds us out even with Steyn. Remember Briad reversing England to victory once in Durban.
The simple answer we just stop playing Test cricket in Durban altogether.... even when Centurion gets it wrong, we still seem to win!
 

Spikey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Yeah I don’t know what got into Lyon there. Was a bit ordinary
It's funny that Haddin came up straight after this post because I'd say Lyon is every bit like the Warner's, Starc's, Haddin's, Johnson's etc. It just gets hidden because no-one listens to a spinner at gully, but he can be just as much of a **** as those guys
 
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Prince EWS

Global Moderator
I think Faf was more disappointed about letting Mitch Marsh, Paine, Cummins and Starc build partnerships.

More along the lines of we have to find ways to not let their lower order stretch it out as much as Australia did.

Shock pace bowlers. Quick arm action or slingy always brilliant for lower orders. It's probably Rabada vs Starc/Cummins for us in this last test.

Not even going to go into reverse as thats next level difficulty. We've seen Steyn do it in Asia over the years. But for some reason Durban finds us out even with Steyn. Remember Briad reversing England to victory once in Durban.
It sounds like a bit of a rich man's problem, but looking at the South African attack even on paper it's obvious to see they don't have someone who a lower order could be regularly blown away by. It's usually quicks who bowl full and straight or spinners with lots of variations who are hard to pick up out out of the hand who do this kind of damage, and the without Steyn or Tahir, South Africa don't have this right now. This is obviously not to say Tahir should be playing (god no), but it's the weak spot in this attack. Rabada is the most theoretically capable but I think he tends to be a 'good length' bowler, and he doesn't do heaps in the air either, so the lesser batsmen tend to do their classic trick of hitting the straight ones and missing the wide ones against him.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
It sounds like a bit of a rich man's problem, but looking at the South African attack even on paper it's obvious to see they don't have someone who a lower order could be regularly blown away by. It's usually quicks who bowl full and straight or spinners with lots of variations who are hard to pick up out out of the hand who do this kind of damage, and the without Steyn or Tahir, South Africa don't have this right now. This is obviously not to say Tahir should be playing (god no), but it's the weak spot in this attack. Rabada is the most theoretically capable but I think he tends to be a 'good length' bowler, and he doesn't do heaps in the air either, so the lesser batsmen tend to do their classic trick of hitting the straight ones and missing the wide ones against him.
Exactly my take on it.

A rich man's problem is apt :D

When you think of it Vern's lack of pace hurts him here and then when it is reversing he can't afford to be too full at his pace.
Morkel's action allows batsman visuals of the ball and it is generally straight up and down and the bonus is you probably don't have to worry about bowled or LBW. He can't bowl 150 anymore either.
Kesh is quality and a old fashioned spinner and I love that - you got to be prepared to be hit and he was by Cummins, Starc and M.Marsh in their partnerships in the first innings but no ways does he deserve negatives about that because he more than did his job. He can't do much more than bowl for the LBW's really and change flight/pace.

Definitely think KG is our best at doing it but can get better to Steyn levels. I think Ngidi is another interesting option as he angles the ball in but is capable of shock pace plus the right lengths.


The Aussues use Starc brilliantly and he probably does deserve more credit than he gets. Remember Amla/AB taking him to cleaners in Perth but he still stuck at it and got wickets. Wickets are the currency bowlers want even if you leak runs.
 

Bolo

State Captain
You're right in that I don't disagree with most of your reasoning, but it's the entire assumption that "he's not as good against middle order" as other bowlers that is just not true.

In case you missed:



The entire discussion is based on a false statement
Look, my eyes told me starc was effective when the ball was swinging and not effective when it was not. I had no idea what the stats were. You posted some stats that supported this view so I commented on it.

You are also posting stats (which I did miss) for a different set of bowlers for different batting positions. You can prove anything you like through selective statistics like this. How about we don't quibble over a couple of % on stats like this, particularly since he is early career and his stats will change.

If we work with what we are seeing, I think we can agree that Starc is good with a swinging ball and worse with a ball that isn't swinging, and that the difference is more pronounced in him than bowlers with some combination of:

1.bowling seam in addition to or instead of swing
2 possessing a greater degree of variation, and
3. simply bowling a tighter line and length to nag a wicket and hold up an end until the ball starts to move.

Interesting stat on Steyn BTW. His middle order numbers being higher than Hazelwood and Philander don't surprise too much as they are mostly new ball bowlers, but I would not have expected him to have a higher % of middle order wickets than McGrath and Morkel. The percentage difference is too low to read anything into it, but it's interesting.
 

S.Kennedy

International Vice-Captain
Warner will sledge someone for the duration of a game. You see this happen. You see the teams playing, and everybody playing respectfully and Warner will for unexplained reason start mouthing-off from the slips. He is an odious diminutive little ogre with a Napoleon complex. For some reason, Warner thinks that is cricket. He seems to think the game is not being played when there is not bullying being thrown around the crease.
 

sunilz

International Regular
Warner will sledge someone for the duration of a game. You see this happen. You see the teams playing, and everybody playing respectfully and Warner will for unexplained reason start mouthing-off from the slips. He is an odious diminutive little ogre with a Napoleon complex. For some reason, Warner thinks that is cricket. He seems to think the game is not being played when there is not bullying being thrown around the crease.
If u write even one more post against Australian player, I will accuse u of
a) Promoting racism against Australia on CW
b) Being jealous of Australian success
 

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