Modern New Zealand XI (dayboo post 1980) 6th poll: Catch my balls or whack my balls?

[Hurricane]

Bmac would be a disaster opening the batting in super tests against ATG attacks. Richardson and Williamson would be together pretty quickly.
I don't really think Fleming will do an awful lot better. I think opening is something that takes several seasons to learn. I have never agreed that someone can go from number 3 to opening very easily. The positions are like chalk and cheese. The fact Fleming did ok is a testimony to his talent. Had he kept batting there for several seasons then he undoubtedly would have finished better than when he started.

tl;dr version Yovich ftw

 

[Zinzan]

Bmac would be a disaster opening the batting in super tests against ATG attacks. Richardson and Williamson would be together pretty quickly.
I don't really think Fleming will do an awful lot better. I think opening is something that takes several seasons to learn. I have never agreed that someone can go from number 3 to opening very easily. The positions are like chalk and cheese. The fact Fleming did ok is a testimony to his talent. Had he kept batting there for several seasons then he undoubtedly would have finished better than when he started.

tl;dr version Yovich ftw

It's true that opening and no.3 are quite different positions, so for context it's important we look at the occasions Flem opened. He did so in the 3 test series in England in 2004. He scored over 300 runs @ an average more than 50 vs. the exact same bowling attack that won the '05 Ashes just 12 mths later, namely; Harmison, Hoggard, Jones, Flintoff & Giles.

And what's more, he was more successful opening against that attack than either Langer or Hayden were for Australia a year later. For me, 6 innings in England conditions in a series in which all 3 tests were results is pretty indicative of how Flem would have feared as an opener. Definitely had it in him to make a success of it.

 

[Flem274*]

Fleming was **** at opening. His main weakness was early movement...so we put him in against early movement. He murdered spinners not called Shane Warne and did ok against Warne too.

I've been thinking about this and I think a 6-9 of Fleming, Watling, Cairns, Vettori has merit. Vettori and Boult being the stock-ish bowlers and Bond and Cairns used in short bursts.

Cairns, Oram, Keeper, Vettori, Bond, Boult would be fun too.

 

[Zinzan]

Fleming was **** at opening. His main weakness was early movement...so we put him in against early movement.

Yet he managed to average 50 in 6 innings in English conditions vs. that English Bowling attack I cited above.

Admittedly, he then had a shocking series opening against Australia in '05, but I remember that series well & that wasn't so much a case of struggling with the moving ball, but instead it was that really bad phase Flem went through with his balance, and falling over to be LBW to McGrath 3 out of his 4 dismissals and LBW to Warne in the other.

 

[straw man]

Yet he managed to average 50 in 6 innings in English conditions vs. that English Bowling attack I cited above.

Admittedly, he then had a shocking series opening against Australia in '05, but I remember that series well & that wasn't so much a case of struggling with the moving ball, but instead it was that really bad phase Flem went through with his balance, and falling over to be LBW to McGrath 3 out of his 4 dismissals and LBW to Warne in the other.

That was Fleming's whole career barring a good 12-18 months around 2003 iirc. I thought he'd resolved that permanently but the problem came back and that turned out to be just a purple patch.

I know that BMac opening would also be food and drink for top bowlers, but Fleming would also very reliably nick off or get trapped in front.

 

[Zinzan]

Possibly a slight exaggeration on Fleming's achilles heel, but even granted that, it's still a case of the lesser of two evils. I'd give Flem a better chance than Bmac as an opener against top attacks.

 

[Hurricane]

Possibly a slight exaggeration on Fleming's achilles heel, but even granted that, it's still a case of the lesser of two evils. I'd give Flem a better chance than Bmac as an opener against top attacks.

I agree with all of this but neither option is satisfactory. Richardson will hold his own against other teams, but usually in these atg exercises we pair him with wright or turner. Both of those options would be significantly better than stephen or brendon. However it is what it is, and Zinzan is right - Flemming may be the best of what is available.
I would have a think about TMac before I went Fleming or Baz in all seriousness. Out of the three of them he is the only serious and proper opener.

 

[Hurricane]

I know that BMac opening would also be food and drink for top bowlers, .

Obviously this is correct. Now justify to me why CW voted him in as the top ranked choice.