Lets rate some of the top contemporary spinners

[SJS]

Who cares?

As for Saqlain Mushtaq, his ODI average was about 30 for the last 20 or so matches he played. It wasn't anywhere near as bad as some people seem to think. Heck, he had a better average in his so-called bad patch than Vettori has ever managed in his career.

Saqlain was a fantastic bowler. He fell into a trap that others have done before. He fell in love with his great variation, the doosra. He over bowled it. So much so that it bacame virtually his stock ball. The result wasth at his great off spin almost vanished. He got much smaller turn from his leg break and also lost the dip in his flight.

It was very sad because he had the credentials to be a truly great bowler.

The Aussies being impressed with Vattori could have something to do with the dearth of high quality left arm finger spinners in Australia for long..very long.

 

[thierry henry]

I've heard the Saqlain story many times SJS. However, no amount of tragic sob stories will sufficiently explain to me why a player with a career average barely over 20, got dropped because he briefly averaged in the high 20s.

 

[SJS]

I've heard the Saqlain story many times SJS. However, no amount of tragic sob stories will sufficiently explain to me why a player with a career average barely over 20, got dropped because he briefly averaged in the high 20s.

I agree with that. He has had a pretty good and consistent test record. Although his last 2-3 games have been disastrous.

At the end of his 23rd test he had taken 105 wickets at 29.0 each

At the end of the 46th he had taken 202 at 28.2 each. This was in Dec 2002. Nothing wrong till this stage.

After that he has played only three tests. One each against SAF, India and Bangla Desh. He got 3 for 237 in the only innings vs SAF and 1 for 204 in the only innings against India.

The 1 for 63 and 1 for 9 he got against the weak Bangla Desh did not undo the damage of the other games.

But I think more than his figures, it was his overall lack of confidence that seems to stand out. Batsmen used to be vary of Saqlain. He was a very aggressive and dominant spinner but in these two games against india and SAF he appeared a shadow of a bowler he once was.

He is still young for a spinner (will be 30 this year) and it would be great if he came back.

I think not including him even in the touring party cant do any good to this fine bowler who, if he could come back, would do wonders for the Pakistani attack. Imagine him and Kaneria bowling in tandem. It would be great.

 

[thierry henry]

I agree with that. He has had a pretty good and consistent test record. Although his last 2-3 games have been disastrous.

At the end of his 23rd test he had taken 105 wickets at 29.0 each

At the end of the 46th he had taken 202 at 28.2 each. This was in Dec 2002. Nothing wrong till this stage.

After that he has played only three tests. One each against SAF, India and Bangla Desh. He got 3 for 237 in the only innings vs SAF and 1 for 204 in the only innings against India.

The 1 for 63 and 1 for 9 he got against the weak Bangla Desh did not undo the damage of the other games.

But I think more than his figures, it was his overall lack of confidence that seems to stand out. Batsmen used to be vary of Saqlain. He was a very aggressive and dominant spinner but in these two games against india and SAF he appeared a shadow of a bowler he once was.

He is still young for a spinner (will be 30 this year) and it would be great if he came back.

I think not including him even in the touring party cant do any good to this fine bowler who, if he could come back, would do wonders for the Pakistani attack. Imagine him and Kaneria bowling in tandem. It would be great.

I was only talking about one-dayers.......

 

[SJS]

I was only talking about one-dayers.......

Hmmm.

This is what was happening to his one day bowling average.

Year Avg Wkts/match
1995 19.22 1.8
1996 19.83 1.9
1997 18.74 1.9
1998 16.41 2.4
1999 23.06 1.5
2000 26.45 1.5
2001 28.95 1.3
2002 28.74 1.3
2003 32.25 1.0


* Didnt play in 2004(2003 only 3 matches). Clearly he was on the decline. I think they preferred the all rounder option to him when they found he could not be accomodated as a specialist bowler alone. Though he did bat usefully at times.

PS Shoaib Malik, the main off spinner after Saqlain, played 27 ODI's in 2004 taking 31 wickets at 28.7 in addition to scoring 895 runs at 37.3 !

 

[honestbharani]

How has Saqlain been doing for Surrey?

 

[thierry henry]

Hmmm.

This is what was happening to his one day bowling average.

Year Avg Wkts/match
1995 19.22 1.8
1996 19.83 1.9
1997 18.74 1.9
1998 16.41 2.4
1999 23.06 1.5
2000 26.45 1.5
2001 28.95 1.3
2002 28.74 1.3
2003 32.25 1.0


* Didnt play in 2004(2003 only 3 matches). Clearly he was on the decline. I think they preferred the all rounder option to him when they found he could not be accomodated as a specialist bowler alone. Though he did bat usefully at times.

PS Shoaib Malik, the main off spinner after Saqlain, played 27 ODI's in 2004 taking 31 wickets at 28.7 in addition to scoring 895 runs at 37.3 !

How many games did he play in each of those years? You've admitted that 2003 doesn't really count as he only played 3 games. I seem to recall that he started to fade out of the team from about 2001 onwards, so he probably didn't play very many matches in 2001 or 2002 either. Nevertheless, those figures show that he was an incredible bowler from 1995-98 (probably unparalleled in ODI history), an excellent bowler from 1999-2000, and a reasonably good bowler in 2001-02, when, I suspect, he did not play many matches and was already in and out of the team. I certainly don't think those stats justify him being dropped. What they show is a player who was tremendous for most of his career, and then merely good for a while.

 

[SJS]

How many games did he play in each of those years? You've admitted that 2003 doesn't really count as he only played 3 games. I seem to recall that he started to fade out of the team from about 2001 onwards, so he probably didn't play very many matches in 2001 or 2002 either. Nevertheless, those figures show that he was an incredible bowler from 1995-98 (probably unparalleled in ODI history), an excellent bowler from 1999-2000, and a reasonably good bowler in 2001-02, when, I suspect, he did not play many matches and was already in and out of the team. I certainly don't think those stats justify him being dropped. What they show is a player who was tremendous for most of his career, and then merely good for a while.

He started to fade out from 1999 and continued to decline. The decline was more pronounced in 2001-2003.

BTW, he did continue to play regularly till 2002. Here are his year wise matches.
Year Matches
1995 5
1996 33
1997 36
1998 14
1999 23
2000 18
2001 15
2002 21
2003 4

 

[thierry henry]

That clearly shows he became a fringe member of the side. It also shows he became a fringe member of the side prematurely. Even taking into account his recent averages, it seems absurd that a player averaging 21 for his career gets dropped because he is averaging 28. I can't believe you would say that he started going downhill in a year in which he averaged 23.

 

[marc71178]

I think not including him even in the touring party cant do any good to this fine bowler who, if he could come back, would do wonders for the Pakistani attack. Imagine him and Kaneria bowling in tandem. It would be great.

I think he's currently injured though isn't he?

 

[marc71178]

How has Saqlain been doing for Surrey?

Not well enough to be retained (although that's partially owing to injuries)

 

[SJS]

I think he's currently injured though isn't he?

Is he ? I didnt know.

 

[marc71178]

I thought he'd had an operation to correct a fairly long-term problem and was ruled out for about 6 months. Could be wrong though.

 

[SJS]

I thought he'd had an operation to correct a fairly long-term problem and was ruled out for about 6 months. Could be wrong though.

You are right. Here it is. He should be back next month according to this.

KARACHI, Pakistan (Reuters) - Pakistan's seasoned off spinner Saqlain Mushtaq is targeting a return to competitive cricket in late February after surgery.

"I have had key-hole surgeries on both my knees which had developed ulcers in them. I am now going through the rehabilitation process and by late February should be back to playing cricket," Saqlain told Reuters on Friday.

The 28-year old has played just one test for Pakistan in a miserable year. He was dropped from the squad in April.

The ulcers are out, but now I have to go through a natural process of healing for the bone fractures to heal. Doctors have told me to do pool exercises and physiotherapy and then start light running after a month. I am targeting February to start bowling again," the paper quoted him as saying.

He further said that he was aiming at playing for the PIA in the Patrons Trophy and Patrons Cup from February onwards, before trying for a berth in the national side for the two major Test tours to India and the West Indies to be held from early March to mid-May.

"By February I should have made complete recovery and it would be the best time for me to start playing competitive cricket again and eye a return to the Pakistan team. I am looking forward in a positive manner," he added. (ANI)

 

[adharcric]

Enamul Haque Jr. of Bangladesh (wow) looks to be quite good as a left-arm spinner, he's blown away zimbabwe and he's taken some big wickets in the past against more quality sides as well, so he looks to be a premier spinner in the near future. i would say the top 5 worldwide are muralitharan, warne, kumble, singh, giles ... (in that order, i guess)

 

[C_C]

GILES ?!?

Okay......now thats an insult to spinners like Kaneria, McGill, Boje etc...

 

[SJS]

Giles is a far better bowler than Nickie Boje will ever be. Giles might well be the best left arm finger spinner in the world today. Of course there arent many great bowlers of that type around.

 

[cric_manic]

i would still say Vettorie is the best left arm spinner in the world......

we havent seen his best yet

 

[SJS]

i would still say Vettorie is the best left arm spinner in the world......

we havent seen his best yet

Possible .

 

[cric_manic]

whos that other spinner from S.A with the weird action
'frog in a blender'
hes a pretty good spinner