Leg Spin or Off Spin????

[chaminda_00]

One of th reason for that is that it is easier to correct a leg spinners action then a off spinners. I know when i coached juniors there always the odd guy that can't bowl with a straight arm, be it medium pace, leg spin or off spin. But over time it is easier to correct their action teaching them to bowl leg spin.

 

[Barney Rubble]

I find it hard to change from offies to leggies after bowling offies for a while - I'm an opening batsman and occasional offspinner (bowling figures this year 3-1-35-0 - crazy I know) and every now and again in the nets I throw down a few leggies but it's a different action and I never get it right.

What I find really annoying is that in winter nets I was bowling the best I ever had, getting some real rip and bounce on the ball, turning it two feet bowling offies in indoor nets at times. But then I come out this season, can't find any rhythm, and I've become all loopy with no turn. Anyone got some key points to remember when bowling offies? It would help me to have something in my head to remember as I run in, as half the time I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

 

[chaminda_00]

Let it come naturally, that all spin bowling is about. I know sometimes in the off season when im bowling in the nets i bowl really well. but then during the season in the nets and in the game i sometimes try too hard and i can't get any consistency. I solved that probelm somewhat this last season, just by being more relaxed and let it flow. Also if your a part timer, just work on small areas of ur game, don't try and do everything at once. Like just work one ball, or if you haven't developed varitions just work on your flight or something. I remember when i first changed from medos to offies, i tired too hard to work on toppies and other varitions. You should just concentrate on your main bowl and the other will come later. If you want something in your head just thing about what you want to do with the bowl and bowl the ball in your mind before you ball.

 

[Neil Pickup]

I find it hard to change from offies to leggies after bowling offies for a while - I'm an opening batsman and occasional offspinner (bowling figures this year 3-1-35-0 - crazy I know) and every now and again in the nets I throw down a few leggies but it's a different action and I never get it right.

What I find really annoying is that in winter nets I was bowling the best I ever had, getting some real rip and bounce on the ball, turning it two feet bowling offies in indoor nets at times. But then I come out this season, can't find any rhythm, and I've become all loopy with no turn. Anyone got some key points to remember when bowling offies? It would help me to have something in my head to remember as I run in, as half the time I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

Chaminda's pretty much on the ball with everything he's mentioned in the thread so far. With regard to chucking leg breaks, I think it's probably so much rarer (it's not impossible, you can chuck anything if you try hard enough!) because it's simply unnatural and inefficient to bend your elbow along with the right-to-left wrist movement that is a leg break. With an offie, your wrist/hand/fingers move in the same direction as the motion of 'chucking', so it's more prevalent in that case.

As for key thoughts/images when bowling spin, I'd probably just go with making sure you get proper rotation and drive on your follow through - either by focusing on pushing your left/lead/non-bowling arm down and/or forcing your right/back leg through.

 

[social]

I find it hard to change from offies to leggies after bowling offies for a while - I'm an opening batsman and occasional offspinner (bowling figures this year 3-1-35-0 - crazy I know) and every now and again in the nets I throw down a few leggies but it's a different action and I never get it right.

What I find really annoying is that in winter nets I was bowling the best I ever had, getting some real rip and bounce on the ball, turning it two feet bowling offies in indoor nets at times. But then I come out this season, can't find any rhythm, and I've become all loopy with no turn. Anyone got some key points to remember when bowling offies? It would help me to have something in my head to remember as I run in, as half the time I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

Off-spin is generated by ripping your fingers down one side of the ball.

Sounds to me like your arm is past the perpendicular at delivery making it all bar impossible to impart significant side spin on the ball. What you are in fact doing is rolling fingers over the top of the ball. This can produce loop (which isnt a bad thing) but negates spin.

Without seeing your action, it is impossible to diagnose what is really the problem. My best advice is to obtain footage of a "classical" off-spinner, i.e. not Murali - he is a one off, and attempt to emulate their action (Paul Wiseman or Saplain are good examples).

Forming a mental picture and trying to replicate it in physical action avoids complicating the mind with technical detail. It is how Bjorn Borg taught himself tennis.

If you are unable to obtain relevant footage, experiment with different grips and bowling positions on the crease. When you discover one that produces pleasing results, stick to it.

 

[vic_orthdox]

I know a leg spinner who gets massive rotation on the ball and has his arm bent all the way. If anything, he increases the angle as he goes, sort of like reverse throwing.

Anyways, advice, however incoherent, that I have, mainly for off spin bowlers, but I guess leggies might be able to take something out of it:

- In relation to the "Over The Perpendicular" Issue:
*Long process, don't get frustrated
*Try as much as possible to keep your core (your body) at a 90 degree angle to the ground, i.e. your body upright.
*Try bowling with a wide arm at training, to accentuate the arm action and make sure that your coming around the ball as well as over it.
*It might feel as though your not getting any overspin on the ball doing this, but chances are that you still are getting overspin. Just sacrificing some for sidespin.

- General tips about spin bowling:
*Seam angled at about 45 degrees as it travels down the pitch.
*Ensure that your feet are aligned in bowling stride. Especially take care that your front foot is not coming in front of your back leg.
*If the ball is drifting inwards, then (assuming that your a right armed bowler) chances are you're over the perpendicular.
*Drive over, not around, with your back leg. Not crucial, but I've always found that it ensures that you don't get lazy with your delivery stride.
*After you bowl, come to the fielding position that one takes up when fielding in close. You should be the best fielder on the ground, considering it's your own figures at stake!!
*Remember: off spin is easy to bowl, but hard to bowl well.

 

[Neil Pickup]

I know a leg spinner who gets massive rotation on the ball and has his arm bent all the way. If anything, he increases the angle as he goes, sort of like reverse throwing.

And about the "over the perpendicular" stuff, I used to be the same. Fixing it will be a long and slow process, especially if you've been doing it for a while. The best way to get around it is by, when in the nets, fairly regularly (i.e. once every 3 balls or so) send down an off spinner with a really wide arm action, and trying to keep the line of your core at a 90 degree angle to the ground. Don't try to bring your arm ridiculously wide, but as though it'd be a type of variation. By doing this regularly, hopefully it'll lower your release point a tad and keep your body upright, and not leaning over, allowing you to get a combination of sidespin and topspin (ideally, for the stock ball, the seam should be pointing diagonally as it goes down the pitch, 45 degree angle), and not jsut the overspin. A key indicator that this is fixed is through you getting drift, especially if (as I was) your currently drifting the ball the same way you turn it. This is a key sign that your leaning too far over at the point of release...

Meh, that's too confusing. No wonder my U/14C kids never improved.

That's the art of coaching kids, transmitting the information in a way they can understand - you've almost lost me with that last lot!

 

[vic_orthdox]

Haha. I've been taught so much stuff myself that I feel the need to get it all out and transfer to whoever I'm advising, so often all at once. I might edit that post into dot points to see if I can get the point across better.

 

[honestbharani]

I know a leg spinner who gets massive rotation on the ball and has his arm bent all the way. If anything, he increases the angle as he goes, sort of like reverse throwing. Anyways, advice, however incoherent, that I have:

- In relation to the "Over The Perpendicular" Issue:
*Long process, don't get frustrated
*Try as much as possible to keep your core (your body) at a 90 degree angle to the ground, i.e. your body upright.
*Try bowling with a wide arm at training, to accentuate the arm action and make sure that your coming around the ball as well as over it.
*It might feel as though your not getting any overspin on the ball doing this, but chances are that you still are getting overspin. Just sacrificing some for sidespin.

- General tips about spin bowling:
*Seam angled at about 45 degrees as it travels down the pitch.
*Ensure that your feet are aligned in bowling stride. Especially take care that your front foot is not coming in front of your back leg.
*If the ball is drifting inwards, then (assuming that your a right armed bowler) chances are you're over the perpendicular.
*Drive over, not around, with your back leg. Not crucial, but I've always found that it ensures that you don't get lazy with your delivery stride.
*After you bowl, come to the fielding position that one takes up when fielding in close. You should be the best fielder on the ground, considering it's your own figures at stake!!
*Remember: off spin is easy to bowl, but hard to bowl well.

That is very good advice, Vic. I have generally got my feet in the right areas when bowling and I do put in quite a bit of shoulder when bowling so that I bowl it quicker. As a leggie, I tend to get natural turn and if it is pushed through, even though the turn is lesser, it gives lesser time for the batter to adjust.... Plus, I tend to pitch the ball upto the bat without having to flight it because of my height. Those are my main +ves.... But I am afraid I have got so many more -ves.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Haha, I should have stipulated that it was more advice for off spinners, but I guess that they're just basics for spin bowling all round.

 

[Prince EWS]

I had the same dilemma a year or two back - I had always been a leg spin bowler, but I developed my offies, and I just couldnt decide which to focus on.

So, I bowl both.... and it doesnt really seem to effect my rythm or accuracy at all. Im sure that one day, Ill decide on one that is more effective for me, but ATM, I bowl both leggies and offies, choosing my main weapon depending on the situation, and using the other as variation.

 

[vic_orthdox]

I had the same dilemma a year or two back - I had always been a leg spin bowler, but I developed my offies, and I just couldnt decide which to focus on.

So, I bowl both.... and it doesnt really seem to effect my rythm or accuracy at all. Im sure that one day, Ill decide on one that is more effective for me, but ATM, I bowl both leggies and offies, choosing my main weapon depending on the situation, and using the other as variation.

The next Sonny Ramadhin in the making....

 

[Nate]

Abhinav Shankar. One of my best friends. He can bowl bloody awesome leg-breaks, unplayable stuff, but can also bowl a bit of tripe. He`s also a powerful hitter, but unlike his bowling, he`s a bit more miss-than-hit.

He has, well, I believe, an extremely well-disguised offie. All my friends, everyone pretty much, find it impossible to pick. In saying that, he can bowl a few crap ones with his off-spinners, but at least they`re hard to pick.

He only bowled once in the seconds with me, and returned with 1/5 off 3. With trials coming up in August/September, he will probably play with me in the seconds again, but should be bowling more often considering his seniority, and the possibility of me becoming captain.

...and as for me? I can`t bowl spin for crap. I admire anyone who can do so, especially people with loads of control. If I`m buggered during a net session, I resort to medium-pacers. Spinners are cool.

 

[Blaze]

I am the leading spin bowler in Wellington for my age group which is not really a big achievment because I don't have any decent opposition. I am nothing special, I mean I am no Dan Vettori, but I always get picked in rep sides because there is basically no one else to choose.

Also spin is good to bowl because most batsman struggle agaisnt spin bowling and will get frustrated very easily if you keep putting it on the spot. If they start hitting you have got to back your own ability and keep bowling to your plan. I actually tend to toss it up even more if I get hit over the top. After all you are playing into the batsmans hands if you start bowling flatter and flatter.

The fact that I got over 50 wickets last season with an RPO of 2.5 and only played about 15 games makes for quite astonishing statistics but I am very realistic. I will probably give away the game at the end of the year or just play socially depending if Cricket Wellington think I am good enough to play at under 19 level.

By the way I bowl Left Arm Orthodox but have flirted with bowling Leg Spin. I have never madea conserted effort to bowl it though as off spin has been so successful for me

 

[twelfth_girl]

I know I struggle more against leggies than offies, but if you can get the hang of both of them then you should try a bit of both, we have a girl who plays for us who can do both and it really gets the batsmen, especialy the tail enders who dont know what they are looking for. If you had to chose one i'd go for leg spin, everyone hates a leggie unless they are on your team!

 

[lord_of_darkness]

Ive been bowling offies and only offies for a very long time now.. and my situation is very similar to blaze except that we have good opposition.. our pitches arent made for spin at all ( neither is the weather ) and i dont think id ever give up on cricket.. because specialist spin bowlers are very very rare in new zealand.. especially off spinners i think..

I have seen the Nz (U19?) Winter academy side thats chosen to train at the lincoln academy in wellington.. and they have a few number of spinners in there.. but the thing is they arent specialist spinners.. just people who ball spin as well as bat..

Blaze hearing from what you say.. i really dont think you should give up on your cricket given your talent.. because wellington could easily do with someone as yourself in the future.. i was considering moving to hamilton or otago perhaps.. just more exposure and the path can be built along..

 

[lord_of_darkness]

I know I struggle more against leggies than offies, but if you can get the hang of both of them then you should try a bit of both, we have a girl who plays for us who can do both and it really gets the batsmen, especialy the tail enders who dont know what they are looking for. If you had to chose one i'd go for leg spin, everyone hates a leggie unless they are on your team!

hey do you by any chance know a girl called kim fraser..? maybe you will meet up with her.. shes a close friend of mine now.. and shes gone upto the Uk this summer to play club cricket once again.. shes a very talented cricketer plays for our womens state side (Auckland Hearts).. pretty good leggie and more than a handy bat.. her concentration has shifted slightly more to her soca and carribean rum at the moment though...:P so dont be suprised if you see her on a saturday morning a little hazed .. so if you do see her give her a shoutout from Reuben !

 

[SJS]

I know I struggle more against leggies than offies, but if you can get the hang of both of them then you should try a bit of both, we have a girl who plays for us who can do both and it really gets the batsmen, especialy the tail enders who dont know what they are looking for. If you had to chose one i'd go for leg spin, everyone hates a leggie unless they are on your team!

I am sorry to disagree.

But you should try both only if you plan to remain a mediocre cricketer and know you are going to bowl to less than mediocre batsmen.

You will not do justice to either and may, just may, hurt your shoulder in addition

 

[SJS]

Abhinav Shankar. One of my best friends. He can bowl bloody awesome leg-breaks, unplayable stuff, but can also bowl a bit of tripe. He`s also a powerful hitter, but unlike his bowling, he`s a bit more miss-than-hit.

He has, well, I believe, an extremely well-disguised offie. All my friends, everyone pretty much, find it impossible to pick. In saying that, he can bowl a few crap ones with his off-spinners, but at least they`re hard to pick.

He only bowled once in the seconds with me, and returned with 1/5 off 3. With trials coming up in August/September, he will probably play with me in the seconds again, but should be bowling more often considering his seniority, and the possibility of me becoming captain.

...and as for me? I can`t bowl spin for crap. I admire anyone who can do so, especially people with loads of control. If I`m buggered during a net session, I resort to medium-pacers. Spinners are cool.

Its mostly some leg spinners who try the occasional off break and rarely the other way around. There are reasons for that.

1. A googly is the best variation for a leg spinner to get the ball to come in but it is much more difficult to bowl and even more difficult to bowl well. So they may tru the easy option of an off break which can fool only the novice.

2. The fast off break is used by many leg spinners (Afridi at the highest level) basically since you cant bowl a very effective faster one in the leg spin action and an off spin combined with the speed does work at times if the batsman has got into a premeditated hitting mood against your normal flighted legspinners and thus fails to give himself to spot the obvious change.

3. Leg breaks are much more difficult to control and at times, particularly in the limited overs game, one may be tempted to bowl an off break to "extract" a dot ball ! Sachin for example, loves bowling his leg breaks but if he has to bowl the last over of the innings in an ODI with very few runs left he will resort to fastish off breaks.

4. Off spinners find the reverse. An occasional leg break as a variation not only stands out like a sore thumb, it also takes that much longer to reach the batsman who therefore gets much more time to realise what is happening even if he is a tailender.

I know people will quote Sachin as an example in refutation of the above but he really isnt and that can be easily explained.

 

[twelfth_girl]

hey do you by any chance know a girl called kim fraser..? maybe you will meet up with her.. shes a close friend of mine now.. and shes gone upto the Uk this summer to play club cricket once again.. shes a very talented cricketer plays for our womens state side (Auckland Hearts).. pretty good leggie and more than a handy bat.. her concentration has shifted slightly more to her soca and carribean rum at the moment though...:P so dont be suprised if you see her on a saturday morning a little hazed .. so if you do see her give her a shoutout from Reuben !

Yeah, I know Kim, she used to play with me at Gunns WCC, but we have another "international" player on our side for this season so shes playing with a guy I know on his team side. She's bloody good, even on crappy a English wicket!