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Jimmy Anderson

trundler

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But doesn't it follow that their strike rates depend on their styles too? Full of a length bowlers like Waqar, Trueman and Steyn generally have better strike rates but are more expensive. Yeah, it's not a perfect comparison because all 3 were 10-15ks quicker, I'll admit.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
Yes, which is a point against your argument, not for it.
You can make anyone look better by excluding their bad performances.
Yes, you can make anyone look better. But I'll stick just fine to using the '10 year peak' as a metric. That doesn't seem like cherry picking to me. Otherwise we're just looking at the career average to summarise the performances of every player across time, which has its failing.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
But doesn't it follow that their strike rates depend on their styles too? Full of a length bowlers like Waqar, Trueman and Steyn generally have better strike rates but are more expensive. Yeah, it's not a perfect comparison because all 3 were 10-15ks quicker, I'll admit.
Absolutely it does. And yeah that's the comparison I'm making too, that being 10-15kms quicker muddies that water. When you have a 150km/ph bouncer in your back pocket, bowling a foot fuller doesn't become so much of an issue when regards to foot movement of the guy you're bowling to.

All I set out to say was that the assertion that Walsh>Anderson, based purely on their career average, is troublesome. It's basically explained away by the fact that Walsh went for slightly less runs an over. And that's largely explained physiologically that he was 6 foot 5, and bowled slightly further back of a length that allowed him to be more parsimonious even when conditions weren't ideal. Walsh was an incredibly good bowler who did the job for 15+ years plus that allowed his country to win a lot of Test matches. Ditto Anderson. I don't see how you can separate them with any particular amount of justification.

Interesting to also see for our trans-Tasman 'but hey what did he average in the greatest country of all' posters that Walsh and Anderson were both mid 30s operators in that most brutal of proving grounds.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
Going for slightly less an over is a good thing though, why shouldn't Walsh be rated higher for that?
Because, as I said, it was more of a by-product of his height and the length the team needed him to bowl. I don't think Anderson should be ranked lower than Walsh because he is 3-4 inches shorter. And one is an into-the-deck bowler, and one is a swing bowler. Anderson could've operated short of a length his whole career, gone for a few less runs an over (especially on flat days) and been half the bowler he is. The by-product of him being a world class swing bowler was going for slightly more an over than Walsh. I don't believe that should cost him one iota in terms of a career comparison.

There seemed to be a decent consensus that Walsh>Anderson and I just don't think that stands up in any sense. Both did the job to a world class level. Walsh averaged slightly less and was consistent across his career. Anderson started slowly but was every inch world class in the last 10 years of his career, even away from home. Anderson was born in England, to become a slightly above average height, and played half his cricket in English conditions with a Dukes ball. And given those unique circumstances, he became the best bowler he could be and that his country needed him to be. I don't get the 'he was rubbish in Australia, couldn't bowl with a Kooka etc' which for a start isn't the whole truth, and in any case is only part of the whole picture. He won as many Tests for his country as he could by bowling the way he did in the conditions he was given.

To me he's an ATG. 452 wickets across a decade (2010s) at 24 nicely secures that for me. But to others, he isn't. Each to their own.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Maybe I'm an ATG pace bowler too. Just not physiologically, which explains why I am a **** pace bowler.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
The main reason teams are accepting of spinners averaging higher than pace bowlers is that they are effective at taking wickets in conditions and at times pace bowlers aren't.

Swing bowlers and seam bowlers are close enough in style that they're rightly judged against each other. They fight for the same place in the team. Their effectiveness is judged on how they perform in the majority of conditions. It's really only England where swing is enough for a bowler to be consistently effective. So most good swing bowlers develop their seam game as well.
 

Coronis

Cricketer Of The Year
Because, as I said, it was more of a by-product of his height and the length the team needed him to bowl. I don't think Anderson should be ranked lower than Walsh because he is 3-4 inches shorter. And one is an into-the-deck bowler, and one is a swing bowler. Anderson could've operated short of a length his whole career, gone for a few less runs an over (especially on flat days) and been half the bowler he is. The by-product of him being a world class swing bowler was going for slightly more an over than Walsh. I don't believe that should cost him one iota in terms of a career comparison.

There seemed to be a decent consensus that Walsh>Anderson and I just don't think that stands up in any sense. Both did the job to a world class level. Walsh averaged slightly less and was consistent across his career. Anderson started slowly but was every inch world class in the last 10 years of his career, even away from home. Anderson was born in England, to become a slightly above average height, and played half his cricket in English conditions with a Dukes ball. And given those unique circumstances, he became the best bowler he could be and that his country needed him to be. I don't get the 'he was rubbish in Australia, couldn't bowl with a Kooka etc' which for a start isn't the whole truth, and in any case is only part of the whole picture. He won as many Tests for his country as he could by bowling the way he did in the conditions he was given.

To me he's an ATG. 452 wickets across a decade (2010s) at 24 nicely secures that for me. But to others, he isn't. Each to their own.
Rightio but even across his 10 year peak he struggled overseas, averaging above 30 in Australia, India, New Zealand, South Africa and Sri Lanka. The only places he didn’t strugtle overseas were the UAE and West Indies, which correct me if I’m wrong, have been happy hunting grounds for pace bowlers in general in recent times. Comparatively Walsh averaged under 25 everywhere, except Australia and a one off test in Sri Lanka.

No doubt Anderson was great at home, I’d pick him over Walsh for a test in England, sure. If I’m picking a bowler to go on tour with anywhere else though, its Walsh every time.
 

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
So you criticise me for supposedly misunderstanding you, yet you write...

There seemed to be a decent consensus that Walsh>Anderson and I just don't think that stands up in any sense.
And all posts have been along the theme of explaining why, in other words exactly the line of argument that I painted you as pursuing. Trying to explain why non-equivalences are equivalent.

Bowling averages are dependent on how good you are at taking wickets and not going for runs, IMO
Might be on to something there...
 

trundler

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Garner would have stunk up the joint if he was a meter shorter. Or had no arms.

Overrated hack relying purely on his physical attributes.
Also had 3 legs.

Out of interest, what pace do you guys reckon Hadlee was operating at usually? Retired bowler usually gain 5ks through nostalgia.
 

srbhkshk

International Captain
Also had 3 legs.

Out of interest, what pace do you guys reckon Hadlee was operating at usually? Retired bowler usually gain 5ks through nostalgia.
Early 140s for a couple years at the start and early 130s after that I think.
 

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