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It's Tough Being Me - The Kevin Pietersen Story
- Thread starter Spikey
- Start date
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
No, maybe not. My point is that if the ECB feel he can't be trusted, and that extends to the team, then that is a good reason. I'd also add that it's a fair jump to expect a selectorial committee to pick a player they don't trust.
Give me an example of Warne texting an opposition mid-series to denigrate his captain and discuss his batting technique. Give me an example of Warne treating a team-mate like KP did Taylor. Just for starters. Differences are way clear. Warne is a tool but you'd want him in the trenches with you.
And Strauss and KP don't have personal issues. It is very much cricketing based. You know this.
OverratedSanity
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I thought KP and Taylor were good mates... What happened?
marc71178
Eyes not spreadsheets
How's he tweeting in-game though?
harsh.ag
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
The thing is, we don't know what **** Warne said about other players because it was a better managed unit where such leaks didn't happen.
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
KP text a few Saffas dissing Strauss (c'd) and allegedly discussed his batting weaknesses (d'd). He then released a tragic YouTube video apologising and denouncing his retirement from ODIs before promptly being dropped, and missing the final Test plus the WT20, in which we were defending champs.
He apologised, Strauss retired, he came back, got reintegrated and then slowly started upsetting Cook and co again.
Scaly piscine
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Do the ECB consult a magic 8-ball before they come out with press releases? No coherent strategy whatsoever.
They tie themselves up in knots trying to avoid answering the issue in a straight fashion.
They tie themselves up in knots trying to avoid answering the issue in a straight fashion.
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
I agree with that. I am not necessarily defending the ECB, though I do feel a bit sorry for Strauss.
Cabinet96
Global Moderator
lol no. KP doesn't rate him as a cricketer.
Pratters
Cricket, Lovely Cricket
I don't see any one among those who matter strong enough to deal with a figure like KP after this press conference. It will be too much of a distraction for the team. If there are wise heads, it can work. However, they don't have that. I still hope KP comes back and has two years of really nice cricket for England. When he toured India, he played a crucial role in that series for the team. It's not easy to find such players. As a KP supporter said a couple of months back when I was discussing it here, they would rather have England perform worse in an Ashes than perform better with him. Sigh.
OverratedSanity
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I don't rate my best friend much as a cricketer either tbf
What did he actually do to him?
Not a former player, but can you imagine warne getting away with treating john buchanan the way he did in the ECB set up?
Cabinet96
Global Moderator
I get the feeling KP doesn't really become friendly with cricketers he doesn't rate. Maybe unfair. But just look at the cricketers he's mates with and you won't see many average ones.I don't rate my best friend much as a cricketer either tbf
What did he actually do to him?
I think in his defence he was asked for his assessment on Taylor by a coach, think Flower, and it got leaked, so hardly his fault. Would make things awkward if they were both in the team again though.
OverratedSanity
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Well sheesh if this is what GIMH is talking about then he's the Heenan to KP's Hogan. Always knew he was an irrational heel.
So Strauss thinks that KP can't bat as well as he used to because he sent an offensive text message? ITSTL. You might not trust him to hang out with your wife alone, or to write the foreword to your autobiography, or to be a character reference for a job interview, but a text message calling his ex-captain a **** in 2012 makes Kevin Pietersen no better, nor no worse, at scoring Test match runs in 2015. Why foreground that when you can foreground a genuinely exciting young middle order pairing who have proven to be very good at making Test match runs in 2015? The answer is simple, because Strauss doesn't give a **** about Pietersen as a Test match runscorer, all of this is about his feelings for Pietersen the man.
As for your request of an example of Warne treating a team-mate like KP did Taylor, here's a paragraph from his 2001 autobiography, talking about the period in which he was stripped of the vice-captaincy after another cheating-on-Simone text got leaked to the media:
Umm, yeah. No prizes for guessing who is who in that passage.
Oh and he's spent basically his entire post-playing career attempting to assassinate the character of John Buchanan, and did quite a bit of it while Buchanan was coaching Warne too.
I agree, I'd want Warne in the trenches (his aversion to boot camp notwithstanding) because he was ****ing good at his job. I have no issue with Pietersen being in the trenches too, because he's well aware that if he throws all his teammates under the bus, he's copping a bullet to the head himself. And his desire for self-preservation is too strong to let that happen -- he's too important to die! The only reason I wouldn't want KP next to me in the trenches is because I've already got three guys who are better than him next to me.
Yeah, they had a structure to deal with various players being ****s and hating each other without it becoming a "you're toxic, you're banned from playing because you're a cancer on the team" ****fight.
You know when we did have that? The Indian tour in the Mickey Arthur era with Watson/Clarke and homework-gate. Heads rolled, and since then Lehmann has kept any tension between Watson and Clarke out of the media and worked out strategies to deal with it internally, and the 'cancer' is finding out that if he isn't performing his place isn't guaranteed.
I mean, Clarke's a pain in the arse to deal with at the moment with his injury deadlines. Arguably he's a destabilising force, albeit one with a lot more associated positives (i.e. captaincy, better batting) than KP. But CA hasn't sacked Lehmann pending a new coach, and sacked James Sutherland to give the role to Simon Katich so Katich can go "SCG 2008. Lara Bingle. Tattoo." and sack Clarke immediately because he feels he can't trust him or work with him.
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
Where did I say Strauss doesn't think KP can bat as well as he used to?
The issue is a cricketing one. Strauss doesn't trust him because of text messages that were directly related to the team environment. And presumably his trust is also based on whatever went down on that Ashes tour (though granted his sources are second hand there).
I feel like you're being a little obtuse and throwing me a straw man here and there. So I'll just break my stance down rather than repeat myself over and over.
1. If you feel that there shouldn't be a trust issue, that's fair enough
2. If trust is an issue, it absolutely is and should be an applicable reason to leave anybody out of the side. It's not about whether you trust KP to score his own runs but his effect on the whole team. Mistrust can sabotage any team environment, in sport, business, anything. Any environment where trust is gone is toxic, the atmopshere and tension are horrendous. It is not a winning environment. And if you think it's unfair to level any of this at KP - see point 1.
3. Saying KP isn't being picked on merit currently would clearly heap pressure on the young middle order, from the media, fans, etc. One match of failure and everyone would be calling for KP in their place - this will happen anyway should they fail, but Strauss & co could do without widening that door and opening up those questions after every single match.
You've taken my metaphor and ran with it. Point is, Warne was a team player. All through his career this was the big question mark against KP, answered with a 'that's how he plays' justification. I oft defended him back in those days, but it brings us back to Jono's point about perception. The perception is he isn't a team player. There are - possibly - trust issues. Do the maths.rvd said:
cnerd123
likes this
How is trust an issue tho.
Do they really feel KP is going to run people out or shell catches?
It's different in a company where you feel someone could leak secrets to a rival and jump ship, or could backstab you on their way up the ladder. But it's hard to fathom a situation like that in Cricket, especially International cricket.
If he drops catches, runs people out, or fails with the bat, he just makes himself look bad. If England loses he looks bad. If he gets caught texting technical flaws of Joe Root to the Aussies he'll look bad.
The players in the dressing room may feel that KP will take what they say out of context and publish it in his next tell-all book; but if the players are so concerned about their public image then there is something wrong with the English Team culture. They should be focused on going out there and winning cricket matches. The rest isnt important or relevant. They should be shielded from the media and too busy working on their game to care about what KP is tweeting.
KP stands to gain nothing by giving less than 100% on the field. I don't understand how trust is an issue.
Do they really feel KP is going to run people out or shell catches?
It's different in a company where you feel someone could leak secrets to a rival and jump ship, or could backstab you on their way up the ladder. But it's hard to fathom a situation like that in Cricket, especially International cricket.
If he drops catches, runs people out, or fails with the bat, he just makes himself look bad. If England loses he looks bad. If he gets caught texting technical flaws of Joe Root to the Aussies he'll look bad.
The players in the dressing room may feel that KP will take what they say out of context and publish it in his next tell-all book; but if the players are so concerned about their public image then there is something wrong with the English Team culture. They should be focused on going out there and winning cricket matches. The rest isnt important or relevant. They should be shielded from the media and too busy working on their game to care about what KP is tweeting.
KP stands to gain nothing by giving less than 100% on the field. I don't understand how trust is an issue.
This is what I so strongly contest. I cannot see how Warne was ever a team player. The only contexts in which I can ever think that statement could possibly be somewhat valid would be when he was captaining Hampshire/Rajasthan/Melbourne (because he could mould them into the Cult of Warne very easily and he had what he wanted -- complete control), and when he was a young leggie under the original AB because Border didn't take **** from anyone and made sure you kept in line.
For the rest of his career, he was pretty plainly in it for himself and himself only -- but in a team sport you can only be so selfish before you start impacting upon the team negatively, and when that happens it's your balls on the public chopping block, and your image that gets destroyed. Both Warne and Pietersen have huge egos, and they knew they had to be performing in a team that was performing to keep the acclaim coming. There is no incentive for them to sabotage the team.
If Australia could trust Warne, England should be able to trust Pietersen. England don't, so he's not being selected. Australia did, so Warne was selected. The only substantive difference is the board's willingness to trust the genius player to add value to the team.
So, IMO:
1. There is no reason for there to be a trust issue, and the reasons for this 'trust issue' existing are pretty specious.
2. The ECB should have been in a better position to manage their players in the first place so that a 'trust issue' doesn't occur.
3. Hiring a guy who has history with KP, who clearly hates his guts and who clearly doesn't want him in the England team and immediately asking him to make a decision on whether or not to pick KP is a recipe for disaster. Especially when that isn't the only conflict of interest involved.
If your entire argument is that "trust issues are bad and a valid reason for non-selection", then fine. I accept that point -- if you can't trust a guy to do his job, you get someone else to do the job. But that isn't what you're arguing at all -- you're constantly trying to portray Shane Warne as being trustworthy and that the reasons why KP isn't trusted by the ECB are entirely valid and reasonable. You're falling into your own version of "see Point 1" with this constant defence of Warne as a team player and KP not being one.