Is Vettori's ineffectiveness a problem for NZ?

[Jarquis]

I think people just inherently under-rate Vettori's batting because he's unorthodox, has a poor career average and has struggled to shrug off the "bowler" tag in people's minds. Actually, this happens in a very similar to way to how people over-rate his bowling because he has a good action, has a decent career record and used to be a bowler. He's a genuinely good Test batsman. I think Collingwood's a little bit better than him, but they're extremely similar IMO.

I think he's a very, very good lower order batsman but he's done a fair amount of stats padding against Bangladesh and a great deal of his runs have been scored from #8.

Collingwood's no world beater but he's a better batsman than Vettori and Vettori's serviceable bowling isn't good enough nor important enough to overcome that difference IMO.

 

[Furball]

With Marcuss and Goughy on this one. I rate Vettori as an all-round package but there's no way he gets into the current England side. Adds nothing with the bat to the overall unit and doesn't do enough with the ball to justify a spot either. Having said that, using the "look how much better Vettori bowls when Bond plays" hypothesis, it might be interesting to see how Vettori would bowl if he played for England.

 

[Flem274*]

When England are 50/6 tomorrow you lot will be wishing you had Dan the Man.

To the person who said Raina would stay in India: No way, the guy will not be a better batsman than Vettori. I was really excited to see him before this series and I was very disappointed. Typical Indian batsman who can rack up huge scores in First Class cricket but is absolutely atrocious at the top level. He is as bad as Michael Papps against short pitched bowling.

The sooner you get a decent batsman like Pujara or Vijay in for him, the better. He's not going to hack it imo. Yuvraj Singh is probably better than him, and that's saying something.

 

[tooextracool]

Wow some pretty laughable claims in this thread to be honest. Collingwood is a world class batsman, Im a fan of Vettori but even at his best hes no more than ordinary.

 

[irottev]

Vettori's bowling is better than everyone is giving credit for. He was the highest wicket taker in the series with one of the best averages - spinner or pacer. From the 4 fron't line spinners he was easily the best.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?id=5937;type=series

And remember, he was bowling to some of the best players of spin in the world.

Of course he'd make the England side or any side in the world. 2 spinners is good balance - Vettori would easily slot in for Collingwood. Swann i'm picking to have a poor Ashes - it's tough in Australia. He's had a good year and generally spinners suffer after that. Look at Panesar - everyone was all excited about him and then he flopped big time.

 

[tooextracool]

Yeah I think Vettori is criminally underrated as a bowler. His figures are badly affected by the conditions he bowls in New Zealand and the annual trans tasman series. His record in the subcontinent is about as good as any other touring spinner, especially in Sri Lanka where it is comparable to the best. He's also done pretty well in England where the ball usually turns especially at Old Trafford and the Oval. Even in conditions unfavorable to him he usually keeps things tight which is really all you can ask for from someone of his kind.

 

[Blocky]

It's his strike rate and lack of second innings wickets that mean he's not a capable strike spinner in my view. Yes, he ties up an end and yes he has an average in the low 30s - primarily due to how few runs he leaks.

But the side needs him to attack more if he's going to bowl so many overs. He can huff and puff and blame the batting all he wants in this series, his batsman gave him two tests to potentially win and he, along with his captaincy and some other poor bowling let them down.

I think the one thing to be learnt from this test series is that we need to rebuild the team around the solid core of batsmen we're developing and ensure we have 4 bowlers + Vettori in the side.

With that in mind, here would be my next selection

1. McCullum
2. McIntosh (no one else is really knocking hard except Papps/Cumming/Redmond and they've all done worse than Mac)
3. Taylor (time to step up big boy)
4. Ryder
5. Williamson
6. Vettori
7. McGlashan/Watling/Young (someone who bats as well as keeps)
8. Franklin
9. Southee/Wagner (when available)/Tuffey
10. McKay/Arnel
11. Martin/Bennett

Harsh on Guptill but his inconsistency and the fact that it's time to bump Vettori into the Top 6 means that unless he converts himself into an opener, there isn't room for him in the middle order.

 

[NZ Guy]

It's his strike rate and lack of second innings wickets that mean he's not a capable strike spinner in my view. Yes, he ties up an end and yes he has an average in the low 30s - primarily due to how few runs he leaks.

But the side needs him to attack more if he's going to bowl so many overs. He can huff and puff and blame the batting all he wants in this series, his batsman gave him two tests to potentially win and he, along with his captaincy and some other poor bowling let them down.

I think the one thing to be learnt from this test series is that we need to rebuild the team around the solid core of batsmen we're developing and ensure we have 4 bowlers + Vettori in the side.

With that in mind, here would be my next selection

1. McCullum
2. McIntosh (no one else is really knocking hard except Papps/Cumming/Redmond and they've all done worse than Mac)
3. Taylor (time to step up big boy)
4. Ryder
5. Williamson
6. Vettori
7. McGlashan/Watling/Young (someone who bats as well as keeps)
8. Franklin
9. Southee/Wagner (when available)/Tuffey
10. McKay/Arnel
11. Martin/Bennett

Harsh on Guptill but his inconsistency and the fact that it's time to bump Vettori into the Top 6 means that unless he converts himself into an opener, there isn't room for him in the middle order.

HE IS AN OPENER! ****!

 

[Blocky]

HE IS AN OPENER! ****!

Not with that technique he's not.

 

[NZ Guy]

Not with that technique he's not.

Phil Hughes doesn't have a traditional technique yet he is still an opener. Maybe his technique isn't up to international cricket but that is where he has batted until he hit the NZ team who seem to be all about making middle order player's opener's and now opener's middle order batsman

 

[Blocky]

Phil Hughes doesn't have a traditional technique yet he is still an opener. Maybe his technique isn't up to international cricket but that is where he has batted until he hit the NZ team who seem to be all about making middle order player's opener's and now opener's middle order batsman

Phil Hughes was quickly found out and dropped from the side in favor of more technically correct or in Katichs case, efficient and consistent techniques

Guptill has two first class tonnes in thirty matches, not good enough and an average of 30 is even worse. Let him go back to domestic and get some true runs and then bring him back. He still walks into the one day team atm

 

[NZ Guy]

Phil Hughes was quickly found out and dropped from the side in favor of more technically correct or in Katichs case, efficient and consistent techniques

Guptill has two first class tonnes in thirty matches, not good enough and an average of 30 is even worse. Let him go back to domestic and get some true runs and then bring him back. He still walks into the one day team atm

Ive said this before on here, imo we need to stick with him as he really has the goods. Dropping him just smells of the old revolving door scenario, probably with him, Watling and Broom. By sending him back to domestic he's just going to plant himself on the front and spank a couple of tons on Colin Maiden road and wont learn anything, infact will probably just get into the Sinclair type attitude of "this technique has got me here, I don't need to change it". By staying in international cricket he will need to develop a back foot technique to succeed, at domestic level he wont

 

[Blocky]

He doesn't make the strongest Top 6 based off of performance in test cricket over the past 24 months, so why should he be sticked with when he also isn't showing it consistently at first class level?

Because he looks good occasionally? Take away a noball and a dropped catch in his one good innings in India and it would make for some poor reading.

I'm a fan of him, but not as a test cricket opener until he shows he can go away and accumulate some Papps/Cumming/Redmond/Broom/McIntosh/Sinclair type numbers in first class cricket. It's important for him to do that because at the moment you have a situation where the Top 6 of NZ Cricket all average 35+ in test cricket in recent years.

 

[NZ Guy]

He doesn't make the strongest Top 6 based off of performance in test cricket over the past 24 months, so why should he be sticked with when he also isn't showing it consistently at first class level?

Because he looks good occasionally? Take away a noball and a dropped catch in his one good innings in India and it would make for some poor reading.

I'm a fan of him, but not as a test cricket opener until he shows he can go away and accumulate some Papps/Cumming/Redmond/Broom/McIntosh/Sinclair type numbers in first class cricket. It's important for him to do that because at the moment you have a situation where the Top 6 of NZ Cricket all average 35+ in test cricket in recent years.

I have no doubt he will do that but I also have no doubt it will be of no benefit to him, he will come back the same player with the same technical problems, wont do well and will get dropped. Even Hopkins averages 50+ in recent years.

 

[Blocky]

I have no doubt he will do that but I also have no doubt it will be of no benefit to him, he will come back the same player with the same technical problems, wont do well and will get dropped. Even Hopkins averages 50+ in recent years.

Then you fix the domestic scene until it does give him the results he needs to come in and play as a better batsman. Quite frankly, Guptill doesn't make the grade unless NZ play six specialist batsmen - a luxury they can't afford due to McCullum converting from a keeper.

 

[NZ Guy]

Then you fix the domestic scene until it does give him the results he needs to come in and play as a better batsman. Quite frankly, Guptill doesn't make the grade unless NZ play six specialist batsmen - a luxury they can't afford due to McCullum converting from a keeper.

Disagree, I reckon we can't afford not to have 6 batsman

 

[Bahnz]

I have no doubt he will do that but I also have no doubt it will be of no benefit to him, he will come back the same player with the same technical problems, wont do well and will get dropped. Even Hopkins averages 50+ in recent years.

If domestic cricket is such a piece of piss, how come he's been averaging under 30 for Auckland? Guptill has never shown the ability to dominate domestic cricket. Until he does, he shouldn't be in the Blackcaps.

 

[Blocky]

Disagree, I reckon we can't afford not to have 6 batsman

In that case, you're dropping Vettori.

 

[NZ Guy]

If domestic cricket is such a piece of piss, how come he's been averaging under 30 for Auckland? Guptill has never shown the ability to dominate domestic cricket. Until he does, he shouldn't be in the Blackcaps.

Not saying that, Im saying that he's going to be playing most of his games on a road and wont be tested on his biggest flaw - backfoot defence.

 

[vcs]

When England are 50/6 tomorrow you lot will be wishing you had Dan the Man.

To the person who said Raina would stay in India: No way, the guy will not be a better batsman than Vettori. I was really excited to see him before this series and I was very disappointed. Typical Indian batsman who can rack up huge scores in First Class cricket but is absolutely atrocious at the top level. He is as bad as Michael Papps against short pitched bowling.

The sooner you get a decent batsman like Pujara or Vijay in for him, the better. He's not going to hack it imo. Yuvraj Singh is probably better than him, and that's saying something.

You're writing Raina off on the basis of one bad series. I'm sure if he keeps his place, he'll go on to be comfortably a better batsman than Vettori.