Is Vettori's ineffectiveness a problem for NZ?

[_Ed_]

Find that a bit surprising. Sounds great to me.

 

[Prince EWS]

I knew that's what you'd say.. not sure I like it though.

Well, forget Vettori bowls for a minute.

In his last three years, Collingwood's scored 2160 runs in 58 innings @ 40.75. Vettori's scored 1725 runs in 48 innings @ 40.11. There's virtually nothing in their batting. I don't rate Vettori's bowling very highly at all, but it's obviously much more useful than Collingwood's.

 

[Jono]

Collingwood's batting is much better than Vettori's IMO. Don't reckon stats tell the actual story there.

 

[Prince EWS]

Neither do I. Sounds terrible

Yeah, I knew you'd hate it, but I think you under-rate both Vettori's batting improvement and the value of five bowlers.

 

[_Ed_]

Collingwood's batting is much better than Vettori's IMO. Don't reckon stats tell the actual story there.

Interesting. I think you'd struggle to convincingly argue that Collingwood scores runs in more difficult circumstances and conditions than Vettori does.

 

[Prince EWS]

Collingwood's batting is much better than Vettori's IMO. Don't reckon stats tell the actual story there.

I think people just inherently under-rate Vettori's batting because he's unorthodox, has a poor career average and has struggled to shrug off the "bowler" tag in people's minds. Actually, this happens in a very similar to way to how people over-rate his bowling because he has a good action, has a decent career record and used to be a bowler. He's a genuinely good Test batsman. I think Collingwood's a little bit better than him, but they're extremely similar IMO.

 

[Jono]

Interesting. I think you'd struggle to convincingly argue that Collingwood scores runs in more difficult circumstances and conditions than Vettori does.

Every time Vettori bats its a difficult circumstance

 

[Goughy]

Well, forget Vettori bowls for a minute.

In his last three years, Collingwood's scored 2160 runs in 58 innings @ 40.75. Vettori's scored 1725 runs in 48 innings @ 40.11. There's virtually nothing in their batting. I don't rate Vettori's bowling very highly at all, but it's obviously much more useful than Collingwood's.

Vettori scored his runs at 8 rather than at a batsmans position and now he is at 7 in your team, now you have Prior at 6 rather than 7 and Vettori takes overs away from better bowlers.

A cluster****. Weakens batting and bowling.

Its nothing against Vettori but with Swann in the side he is a bad fit for England. Without Swann then Vetorri would really help but at the moment he wouldnt get in the team.

Vettori has had 1 good year with the bat. Im not trying to take that away but he has had 1 year in a 14 yr career with multiple hundreds. Collingwood has had 4 out of 7. It isnt even a comparison on which is the better frontline batsman.

 

[_Ed_]

Every time Vettori bats its a difficult circumstance

Haha, true.

But that shouldn't take anything away from his performances.

 

[vcs]

Vettori would not fit the composition of England's side considering both Broad and Swann are competent lower-order batsmen, and Swann is much better than him as an attacking spinner. He'd walk into Aus (over Hauritz/Doherty/Smith), Ind (over Ojha), SA (Harris/Botha), and Pakistan (Rehman?) though.

 

[Prince EWS]

Vettori would not fit the composition of England's side considering both Broad and Swann are competent lower-order batsmen, and Swann is much better than him as an attacking spinner. He'd walk into Aus (over Hauritz/Doherty/Smith), Ind (over Ojha), SA (Harris/Botha), and Pakistan (Rehman?) though.

I think of him more as a batting allrounder though - which is what he's performed as in the last five years or so. I'd bat him at six or seven in most sides and have him as the fifth bowler. I actually think Ojha's probably a better bowler even though I don't rate Ojha highly; I'd play Vettori ahead of Raina if anyone.

 

[vcs]

I think of him more as a batting allrounder though - which is what he's performed as in the last five years or so. I'd bat him at six or seven in most sides and have him as the fifth bowler. I actually think Ojha's probably a better bowler even though I don't rate Ojha highly; I'd play Vettori ahead of Raina if anyone.

Disagree.. wouldn't play him as a batman ahead of Collingwood even though I don't rate Colly all that highly. I think Vettori's better than Ojha just as a bowler TBH. He'd have caused some damage bowling to that Kiwi lineup today.

 

[Athlai]

Vettori scored his runs at 8 rather than at a batsmans position and now he is at 7 in your team, now you have Prior at 6 rather than 7 and Vettori takes overs away from better bowlers.

A cluster****. Weakens batting and bowling.

Its nothing against Vettori but with Swann in the side he is a bad fit for England. Without Swann then Vetorri would really help but at the moment he wouldnt get in the team.

Vettori has had 1 good year with the bat. Im not trying to take that away but he has had 1 year in a 14 yr career with multiple hundreds. Collingwood has had 4 out of 7. It isnt even a comparison on which is the better frontline batsman.

Vettori has had far more than 1 good year with the bat.

 

[Prince EWS]

Disagree.. wouldn't play him as a batman ahead of Collingwood even though I don't rate Colly all that highly. I think Vettori's better than Ojha just as a bowler TBH. He'd have caused some damage bowling to that Kiwi lineup today.

I think Collingwood's a better batsman than Vettori, but I think it's very, very marginal. His bowling more than makes up for it, even though I don't rate it nearly as high as some (including, it seems, you). I'd bat him at eight for South Africa or Australia because they have Watson/Kallis and worse spinners than even Vettori, but for every other team I'd have him in the top seven as part of a five-man attack.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the team I'd have the most reservations picking him for would be Sri Lanka. He'd actually improve India's team a lot coming in for Raina IMO, as given he's about equal to Ojha as a bowler (or even fractionally worse, as I think), India could actually pick three seamers and still have two spinners. Could've really helped in this series, for example. Sri Lanka though are much better off using Mathews as the third seamer and picking two specialist spinners, as their spinners are better than both Vettori and their other seamers (particularly if the guy Migara rates so highly whose name escapes me at the moment is as good as he'd have you believe).

 

[Goughy]

I think of him more as a batting allrounder though - which is what he's performed as in the last five years or so. I'd bat him at six or seven in most sides and have him as the fifth bowler. I actually think Ojha's probably a better bowler even though I don't rate Ojha highly; I'd play Vettori ahead of Raina if anyone.

Yep, it makes perfect sense to bat him 6 or 7 for stronger teams when he has batted there for only 13% of his innings for one of the weaker teams and averages 27.35

 

[Goughy]

Vettori has had far more than 1 good year with the bat.

He has 1 calender year with 500+ runs and a century. If we are talking about him as a supposed frontline batsman then lets at least hold him to simliar standards. Its not just about the odd ton over a career or some gritty 50s.

 

[Athlai]

He has 1 calender year with 500+ runs and a century. If we are talking about him as a supposed frontline batsman then lets at least hold him to simliar standards. Its not just about the odd ton over a career or some gritty 50s.

500+ runs is a pretty impossible task when you get so few chances to bat and New Zealand just haven't played enough Tests post 2005 to really highlight his ability.

Though I'm not suggesting he is better than Collingwood with the bat, but they're certainly in the same ball park.

 

[_Ed_]

Collingwood made his Test debut just under seven years after Vettori and has already played more than 60% of the number of matches Vettori has.

 

[vcs]

I think Collingwood's a better batsman than Vettori, but I think it's very, very marginal. His bowling more than makes up for it, even though I don't rate it nearly as high as some (including, it seems, you). I'd bat him at eight for South Africa or Australia because they have Watson/Kallis and worse spinners than even Vettori, but for every other team I'd have him in the top seven as part of a five-man attack.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the team I'd have the most reservations picking him for would be Sri Lanka. He'd actually improve India's team a lot coming in for Raina IMO, as given he's about equal to Ojha as a bowler (or even fractionally worse, as I think), India could actually pick three seamers and still have two spinners. Could've really helped in this series, for example. Sri Lanka though are much better off using Mathews as the third seamer and picking two specialist spinners, as their spinners are better than both Vettori and their other seamers (particularly if the guy Migara rates so highly whose name escapes me at the moment is as good as he'd have you believe).

That's interesting, he'd certainly be a very good choice if India were to go for a five-man attack. I tend to agree with Goughy that batting him in the top 6 would weaken the batting. Raina may have had a poor series but I'd wager large amounts that if persisted with, he will go on to do better than Vettori with the bat.

 

[Prince EWS]

That's interesting, he'd certainly be a very good choice if India were to go for a five-man attack. I tend to agree with Goughy that batting him in the top 6 would weaken the batting. Raina may have had a poor series but I'd wager large amounts that if persisted with, he will go on to do better than Vettori with the bat.

Well I'm not saying Vettori's a better batsman than Raina. I'm not saying he isn't either, but if he isn't I'm sure India could find another batsman to average more than the 40 odd Vettori's currently producing. That's not the point though - he obviously wouldn't make India's team based on batting alone, but he'd improve it as a batting allrounder IMO. And that's coming from someone who doesn't rate his bowling much.