Insiders and Outsiders

[GIMH]

I am not being overly harsh. He has improved, I concede that. He is bowling with pace and thinks about his bowling but he still is not taking enough wickets and he is playing some pretty poor teams.

His haul in the Carribean was decent and he has 8 @ 25 in these two tests, I think that's enough wickets

 

[Manee]

His haul in the Carribean was decent and he has 8 @ 25 in these two tests, I think that's enough wickets

He bowled well, but he should still has a long way to improve, imo.

 

[Manee]

Really?

Did I say something controversial, I didn't mean to.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Did I say something controversial, I didn't mean to.

Nah, just that I feel Broad hasn't played against 'genuinely' weak opposition. His bowling in the half dozen tests would have troubled better XI's, testominy to the fact he's got Chanderpaul, Gayle and Sarwan combined a fair few times.

 

[GIMH]

He bowled well, but he should still has a long way to improve, imo.

Yep, definitely. But he's made sharp progress these last 6 months, and many people are acting like he's still bowling like he was last summer.

 

[King Pietersen]

It's a characteristic that Broad's shown mainly in ODi cricket, he very rarely dismisses tail-enders, and more often than not dismisses the top-order batsmen, and it appears he's starting to convert that into Test cricket. Here are the full list of his ODi wickets, excluding a few against Ireland iirc:

How
Yuvraj
Bravo
Gibbs
Sangakkara
Silva
McCullum
Styris
Taylor
Gayle
Ramdin
Botha
Karthik
Raina
Ryder
Sehwag
Smith
Dhoni
Mills
Chanderpaul
Tendulkar
Ganguly
Gambhir
Oram
Powar
Sarwan
Razzaq
Agarkar
Duminy
Jayawardene
Fernando
Kallis
Akmal
Mubarak
Sammy
Vaas
Younis Khan
Samuels
R Sharma
Akhtar
Malik
Tharanga
G Smith

The bolded guys are the lower-order bowlers and they're very few and far between. That's a list of some very good international batsmen right there, and if he can get that Test average down to the same sort of region as his ODi average, then he'll have done very well. I can see no reason why he can't, he doesn't seem to be the typical England player that's happy to settle for mediocrity. The talk in the England camp is that he's improving and learning every day, and that's finally starting to show in both forms of the game. With Anderson and Broad both starting to find some real form, things have to be looking on the up for England, could have a very, very good attack in a year or so if Onions continues to develop.

 

[Manee]

Yep, definitely. But he's made sharp progress these last 6 months, and many people are acting like he's still bowling like he was last summer.

Personally, I often react poorly to commentators acting like he is the first outswing bowler to be able to bowl a conventional inswinger or bowl a cutter; like he is reinventing the wheel - when I feel it is often false hype for someone who can become a Gough-quality bowler, but hardly 'world class' which I what I feel the hype points to. (Wow, that was phrased poorly).

If someone perfects the yorker like Umar Gul or, yes, Gough, they get little credit. Broad is overly credited for some half-baked variations which have fooled batsmen but will certainly not continue to do so. I just feel the whole tone of optimism towards him is overstated.

I will go on record, he is not a poor bowler, he is a promising bowler, but he is overhyped and perhaps I overstate his mediocrity in a response to such.

 

[GIMH]

TBH I have always looked out for your posts on Broad since last summer as I thought what you said about him the past was very insightful. But let me ask you this - do you think he should be in the england side?

 

[Manee]

TBH I have always looked out for your posts on Broad since last summer as I thought what you said about him the past was very insightful. But let me ask you this - do you think he should be in the england side?

Now - yes. Ideally, I would have him at seven, even when (if) Flintoff returns and coming on first change but I would unconditionally have him in the Test side, atm. He is an invaluable partnership breaker.

 

[GIMH]

Okay, and I think what frustrates me is the amount of people who still think he shouldn't be playing Test cricket. I think he's definitely showing himself to be one of our best seamers and yet some posters seem to think he should be playing club cricket or whatever.

I do agree that the commentary overhype him, they've been doing it since day one. It was particularly annoying last summer when he clearly was bowling badly in Tests, and failing to acknowledge this would have resulted in some players not putting in the desired work to improve.

I would be interested in knowing what was in the selectors' minds this winter when they continued to pick him. Did they retain him on the basis of his batting, or had they seen something that we were yet to see (and have been saying these past seven tests) when he bowled?

 

[Manee]

Okay, and I think what frustrates me is the amount of people who still think he shouldn't be playing Test cricket. I think he's definitely showing himself to be one of our best seamers and yet some posters seem to think he should be playing club cricket or whatever.

I think he has been given unproportionate faith by the selectors but you would be insane to say that he should not play, atm.

I do agree that the commentary overhype him, they've been doing it since day one. It was particularly annoying last summer when he clearly was bowling badly in Tests, and failing to acknowledge this would have resulted in some players not putting in the desired work to improve.

I would be interested in knowing what was in the selectors' minds this winter when they continued to pick him. Did they retain him on the basis of his batting, or had they seen something that we were yet to see (and have been saying these past seven tests) when he bowled?

I am inclined the think the former, which I do not agree with since he was batting at eight at the time.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Thing that's really impressed me about Broad in the last couple of series is how frequently he seems to bowl good bouncers - and I stress this as this is quite a difficult art, to produce bouncer after bouncer at the batsman's head. Doesn't matter really who the batsman is, unless they are an exceptional puller they'll be in a bit of trouble.

Stated that he's done plenty of running (SKY interview) and I imagine he's now reaping the rewards as a result of this.

 

[Manee]

Thing that's really impressed me about Broad in the last couple of series is how frequently he seems to bowl good bouncers - and I stress this as this is quite a difficult art, to produce bouncer after bouncer at the batsman's head. Doesn't matter really who the batsman is, unless they are an exceptional puller they'll be in a bit of trouble.

Yes. The pace on a bouncer is important, but the accuracy infinitely morso. Zaheer Khan has shown how an accurate bouncer is valuable regardless of pace and Broad has tremendous control of his short ball. It just seems to come naturally to him to get that lift and therefore he can focus on where it lands.

 

[Goughy]

testominy to the fact he's got Chanderpaul, Gayle and Sarwan combined a fair few times.

Good stat but not true. As far as I can see, he has never dismised all 3 in the same innings let alone 'a fair few times'

 

[Pratters]

Brian Lara was very much an insider, timing his arrival perfectly to coincide with Viv Richards's retirement. Meanwhile Shiv Chanderpaul found himself in Lara's shadow for much of his career and is only becoming prominent at a pretty old age.

Chanderpaul was never the batsman he has been now in his career.

 

[Richard]

His First Class performances haven't been too good, have they?

Everytime I've seen Hoggard bowl in the last year or so he seems to be down in pace also. Not according to the Speedo, but he doesn't seem to be rushing batsmen like he appeared to when at his best. The ball really seemed to nip onto the batsmen, especially the inswinger to the left-hander, but whenever I've seen him in the last year he appears to have lost that. I'm not too bothered that we appear to have moved on from him.

I struggle to believe anyone honestly thinks Tim Bresnan is a better bowler than him right now, never mind Graham Onions.

As for Hoggard rushing batsmen, he never did - he might have appeared to because he troubled them with whatever methods he used, but he never rushed them with pace, either out of the hand or off the pitch.

The notion that he's lost pace off the pitch (the notion that he's lost it out of the hand can be disproved without trying via speedo readings) seems more than a little far-fetched really, but even if true, the notion that there are more than one - two at best - seam-bowlers better in the country than him is plain misplaced, simple as.

 

[Richard]

Okay, and I think what frustrates me is the amount of people who still think he shouldn't be playing Test cricket. I think he's definitely showing himself to be one of our best seamers and yet some posters seem to think he should be playing club cricket or whatever.

There's absolutely no question about his Test place right now, but I still don't think he's that good, and I think people are going OTT about his performances against West Indies' weak batting (yes, Chanderpaul and Sarwan have gotten out to him as well but the rest of the side is weak as you'll see in Test-class teams).

And I think if people are expecting the sort of bowling he's dished-up the last few months to be successful against Australia they're going to be very disappointed.

 

[Prince EWS]

There's absolutely no question about his Test place right now, but I still don't think he's that good, and I think people are going OTT about his performances against West Indies' weak batting (yes, Chanderpaul and Sarwan have gotten out to him as well but the rest of the side is weak as you'll see in Test-class teams).

And I think if people are expecting the sort of bowling he's dished-up the last few months to be successful against Australia they're going to be very disappointed.

Yeah, I agree with this.

He certainly shouldn't be dropped as his performances of late have been acceptable, so dropping him now would be poor from a selection process POV and really make precious little sense in general.

However, I don't think he's one of England's best seamers and I don't expect him to be effective against Australia.

 

[GIMH]

So which seamers do you think are better?

 

[Richard]

Anderson's clearly better; the currently-unfit Flintoff is clearly better; Sidebottom if he ever regains acceptable fitness is clearly better; Hoggard IMO is clearly better.

Some of course would claim Harmison is capable of being better; I'd say maybe at best he is. And of course there is the ever-looming spectre of Simon Jones, who is indeed exceedingly unlikely ever to be fit again.

And I'd say most people in the country right now reckon Broad is genuinely better than Hoggard and Sidebottom - fit or not - without batting too many eyelids. And it's that that I think is wrong. Not that Broad is currently ahead of both in selection pecking-orders - because recent outcomes have dictated that this should be the case.