How good is Sanga?

[Gowza]

which is why i've said in previous posts it's hard to rate sanga.

 

[Gowza]

kallis averages 503 in zimbabwe, let's just ignore that because that happened between 1999-2001 which was so long ago plus it was only 3 matches, UAE was only 4 matches lets discount that, pakistan 5 matches less discount that. the point is sanga hasn't played a lot outside SC but that doesn't mean we discount what he has achieved in those places. it's like saying if he had recently toured WI, india and RSA that he definitely would have improved his record, i would think he would but his record is his record and that's what we have to go on. if he had played more in australia what's to say he wouldn't have maintained it? all we know is he averaged 60 from 10 innings with 1 ton and 5 half tons.

if i had the choice between sanga and kallis playing for me in australia who would i pick? sanga averages a lot more from less matches but kallis's very good record is from a good number of matches. do you gamble with sanga that he'll maintain his higher average or do you go with kallis who is more proven over more matches? that's why it's hard to rate sanga and probably why most would pick kallis over him.

 

[CWB304]

in 5 countries kallis has played 5 or less test matches does that mean we should ignore his record in those countries? sanga has that same stat, there are 5 countries where he has played 5 or less matches. the main difference is kallis has played 10+ matches in 4 countries whereas sanga has only played 10+ in 1 country. sanga has played 6-10 matches in 4 countries and kallis has done that in 2 countries.

in england kallis has played 15 matches to sanga's 11 but they have the same amount of tons with sanga having 2 more half tons from 3 less innings, so no doubt sanga has done better in england than kallis. in pakistan they've both played 5 matches but sanga has played 1 less innings yet he's scored the same number of hundreds (including a double which kallis never did in pakistan) and one more half ton, so sanga has done better in pakistan as well.

but if we're saying sanga hasn't played enough in these countries then we can only really rate him in SL and england. with sanga you can over look his mid 30s averages a bit because he's played so few matches in those countries, and you can do that for 2 of the countries where kallis averages in the 30s but for one of them (england) he's played a good amount of matches (15) and still averages mid 30s

Good post.

 

[Maximas]

@Jassy

Sanga has a pretty small sample size basically everywhere he plays except at home, arguments about how useful data from a small sample size is works for both his good and bad countries, compile his efforts in Aus/NZ/SA/Eng and you end up with an average of 45 from 28 matches, not bad at all. For every far fetched 'apologetic' argument based bull**** about wicket-keeping and short-series' there's an equally pathetic counter-argument based on unreliable data that is made out to be all important when in reality it simply boils down to your idea that runs away from home is how we judge players.

 

[Migara]

Sanga averaging higher in those countries again needs to be taken with a pinch of salt... He's just played so few matches.

And saying that players would average higher at home because they get used to the conditions doesn't seem to apply to sa. It's generally the toughest place to bat in. Amla, de Villiers, Smith etc all average mid-low 40s. It's just not like India, Australia or Sri Lanka where home players dominate. That Kallis averages 56 there is probably his greatest statistical achievement.

NZ and SL are the toughest and then comes SAF. Soon Wi will surpass everyone, because their stripes are utter ****.

 

[Maximas]

Too many test matches are played at SSC to really say SL is a tough place to bat

 

[Jassy]

No-one is saying anything should be discounted but when you want to compare him with batsmen who have done well everywhere (or in many more places at least) then obviously it will be brought up. I merely pointed the double standard in happily including knocks played in 2007 and 2006 but claiming series in 2009/2008/2012 don't count because they came so long ago.

Put it this way if Sanga had Kallis' Australia record, I'd rate him considerably higher.

 

[Migara]

Forgetting statistics and everything even, how many would really back Sanga against really top quality pace or spin bowling in testing conditions?

Plenty. Given when he gave away the gloves he averages nearly 70 with the bat, IF he never kept, would ahve been averaging 62-63 by now, Difinietly over Kallis and Dravid, at least given the insane peak he has.

 

[Migara]

Too many test matches are played at SSC to really say SL is a tough place to bat

Still it's one of the tougest places to bat. You don't get a seamers paradise like Kandy and spinners paradise like Galle in the same country very often.

 

[Jassy]

@Jassy

Sanga has a pretty small sample size basically everywhere he plays except at home, arguments about how useful data from a small sample size is works for both his good and bad countries, compile his efforts in Aus/NZ/SA/Eng and you end up with an average of 45 from 28 matches, not bad at all. For every far fetched 'apologetic' argument based bull**** about wicket-keeping and short-series' there's an equally pathetic counter-argument based on unreliable data that is made out to be all important when in reality it simply boils down to your idea that runs away from home is how we judge players.

Well if you include NZ, I don't see why you can't include WI as well; but I get your point and it is fair enough. Look, all I am saying is Sanga tends to get overrated. Whether that is making me underrate him without me realising I can't say but when you compare him to say, even Abd and Amla, his record isn't as complete and he hasn't played anywhere near enough outside Pak/SL IMO to be truly merit a discussion with the greatest and the holes in his record don't help. My issue is with people who try to pretend WI/India don't count because he last played there in 2008/2009 but happily count a ton in 2006 and another in 2007 and silly/biased arguments like that.

If he does go on to have 2 more good tours outside the SC..I'll be the first to come here and post about it.

 

[Jassy]

Plenty. Given when he gave away the gloves he averages nearly 70 with the bat, IF he never kept, would ahve been averaging 62-63 by now, Difinietly over Kallis and Dravid, at least given the insane peak he has.

Ok.

 

[Migara]

If he does go on to have 2 more good tours outside the SC..I'll be the first to come here and post about it.

If a WI or IND tour isa round in next two years, he's going to prop that average to 45+ in those two countries. Against SAF though will take some doing.

 

[Migara]

Ok.

Thanks.

 

[Maximas]

Well if you include NZ, I don't see why you can't include WI as well; but I get your point and it is fair enough. Look, all I am saying is Sanga tends to get overrated. Whether that is making me underrate him without me realising I can't say but when you compare him to say, even Abd and Amla, his record isn't as complete and he hasn't played anywhere near enough outside Pak/SL IMO to be truly merit a discussion with the greatest and the holes in his record don't help. My issue is with people who try to pretend WI/India don't count because he last played there in 2008/2009 but happily count a ton in 2006 and another in 2007 and silly/biased arguments like that.

If he does go on to have 2 more good tours outside the SC..I'll be the first to come here and post about it.

I didn't include WI because I consider it more of an SC type than what you get outside the SC, but it helped my argument too

The fact that the holes are so easily fixed is what leads me to not think too much of this whole 'complete record' stuff, I mean, one good two test series and suddenly Sanga went from poor to decent in England. I understand your issue with the double standard of people pointing to NZ 2006 but trying to hide India and WI on the grounds of 'it was ages ago though'.

 

[Jassy]

Don't think he'll be able to maintain that average in Australia if he plays us anytime before he retires. NZ maybe but I don't see him doing too well in Aus but it is all conjecture anyway. What are Sri Lanka's next away tours?

 

[Jassy]

I didn't include WI because I consider it more of an SC type than what you get outside the SC, but it helped my argument too

The fact that the holes are so easily fixed is what leads me to not think too much of this whole 'complete record' stuff, I mean, one good two test series and suddenly Sanga went from poor to decent in England. I understand your issue with the double standard of people pointing to NZ 2006 but trying to hide India and WI on the grounds of 'it was ages ago though'.

Well he had to score about 300 runs in 4 innings to fix it tbh, wouldn't call it ''easily fixing it' myself :P And it also works in reverse...his Aus record could easily go to <50 if he has a poor tour sometime.

 

[Maximas]

If Sanga plays on till the end of 2015 he'll get two tours of NZ and one of India from what I can see

 

[Maximas]

Well he had to score about 300 runs in 4 innings to fix it tbh, wouldn't call it ''easy'' myself :P And it also works in reverse...his Aus record could easily go to <50 if he has a poor tour sometime.

Indeed, that's why I try to look at the overall picture rather than the stats for individual countries

 

[Gowza]

Shouldn't be ignoring anything, bringing up how long ago he played somewhere was more to the point that he hasn't had the chance to rectify his record rather than to ignore what he has done in those places.

 

[Jassy]

If Sanga plays on till the end of 2015 he'll get two tours of NZ and one of India from what I can see

Awesome. A tour of Aus would have been great but NZ and India are fine too. Should be fun. Meanwhile hope he obliterates Pak.