Hashim Amla- the most misleading odi stats ever

[shankar]

Yep. Gold tier is 35 average with 95 strike rate and another key skill (bowling/ keeping). Which is Gilchrist and Jayasuria. The silver tier players did that without being able to bowl/ keep.

Tendulkar, while no slouch with the bat, was not quite as explosive and fits more into the "high average+solid strike rate openers" category like Waugh and Lara.

The very best batting teams had both types of opener (explosive + high average).

That's not the right way to compare strike-rates. If a player A on average plays x balls per inning and player B plays x+y balls per inning you'd have to compare their strike rates over the first x balls. A player might be explosive at the beginning of his inning when the field is up and be capable of switching to a lower gear when the field is spread out. Such a player would have a lower strike-rate than a purely explosive player. But he would be capable of fulfilling the latter's role and going beyond.

 

[sunilz]

Yep. Gold tier is 35 average with 95 strike rate and another key skill (bowling/ keeping). Which is Gilchrist and Jayasuria. The silver tier players did that without being able to bowl/ keep.

Tendulkar, while no slouch with the bat, was not quite as explosive and fits more into the "high average+solid strike rate openers" category like Waugh and Lara.

The very best batting teams had both types of opener (explosive + high average).

As explosive as Gilchrist and Jayasuriya with far better average. Slowed down for team's cause in 2000.
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

 

[srbhkshk]

Yep. Gold tier is 35 average with 95 strike rate and another key skill (bowling/ keeping). Which is Gilchrist and Jayasuria. The silver tier players did that without being able to bowl/ keep.

Tendulkar, while no slouch with the bat, was not quite as explosive and fits more into the "high average+solid strike rate openers" category like Waugh and Lara.

The very best batting teams had both types of opener (explosive + high average).

Not really, as an opener his SR is more than 88, Jaya's is 92, the solid batsman in that era tended to have SRs around 75ish, Tendulkar is closer to being an explosive batsman in terms of SR, of course his average is actually higher than the "solid" batsman as well, really one of a kind opener in that regard and can't really shoehorn him into any one category.

 

[stephen]

That's all true, which is probably why many people rate Tendulkar in the top 3 ODI batsmen in history, and a lock at opener for the AT team.

He was basically an explosive opener who also was a high averaging one for a long time.

Greenidge, Haynes, Hayden, Lara, Waugh all averaged over 40 as opener but none were as good at the role as Tendulkar. I consider Tendulkar more akin to those batsmen but with a better strike rate than I think of him as an explosive batsman with a higher average.

 

[sunilz]

I think there are quite a few. Usually, second opener is where the opportunity cost of fitting an all-rounder is lowest so I go Watson or Jayasuriya. If I were to pick the second best opener, I would go with Greenidge. There are others like Anwar, M. Waugh, Hayden etc. who are worth a shout.

Sehwag is pretty much ruled out of this conversation because his secondary skill is all but non-existent.

I hope u know the average of Anwar away from home.
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

 

[ankitj]

Here are top 20 openers (minimum 2000 runs as opener) ranked by Avg x SR:

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	Ave X SR/100
RG Sharma (INDIA)	2011-2018	81	80	6	3888	264	52.54	4257	91.33	12	18	3	47.98
S Dhawan (INDIA)	2010-2018	86	85	6	3660	137	46.32	3893	94.01	11	22	3	43.55
HM Amla (SA)	2008-2018	133	132	8	5993	154	48.33	6790	88.26	19	29	3	42.66
Q de Kock (SA)	2013-2018	72	72	4	3066	178	45.08	3273	93.67	12	10	2	42.23
SR Tendulkar (INDIA)	1994-2012	294	290	16	12840	200*	46.86	14666	87.54	35	67	12	41.02
DA Warner (AUS)	2009-2018	98	97	2	3948	179	41.55	4182	94.4	13	16	1	39.22
V Sehwag (ICC/INDIA)	2001-2013	181	179	5	6338	219	36.42	6120	103.56	13	28	11	37.72
MJ Guptill (NZ)	2009-2018	114	112	12	4283	237*	42.83	4874	87.87	10	22	11	37.63
SR Watson (AUS)	2006-2013	84	83	6	3257	161*	42.29	3732	87.27	6	21	7	36.91
TM Dilshan (SL)	2008-2016	162	159	11	6165	160*	41.65	7124	86.53	14	30	7	36.04
AC Gilchrist (AUS)	1998-2008	222	221	4	7670	154	35.34	7919	96.85	14	44	16	34.23
AJ Finch (AUS)	2013-2018	81	78	1	2931	135	38.06	3301	88.79	9	17	7	33.79
ML Hayden (AUS)	1993-2008	127	126	9	5052	181*	43.17	6506	77.65	10	27	6	33.52
IR Bell (ENG)	2006-2015	67	66	5	2544	141	41.7	3171	80.22	3	15	2	33.45
ST Jayasuriya (SL)	1993-2011	321	316	11	10427	189	34.18	11382	91.6	22	56	26	31.31
BB McCullum (NZ)	2002-2016	90	86	2	2606	131	31.02	2590	100.61	2	16	9	31.21
Saeed Anwar (PAK)	1989-2003	191	191	9	7023	194	38.58	8815	79.67	18	31	12	30.74
G Gambhir (INDIA)	2003-2013	82	79	4	2678	150	35.7	3111	86.08	6	16	8	30.73
ME Waugh (AUS)	1993-2002	129	129	8	4879	173	40.32	6407	76.15	11	28	9	30.70
CH Gayle (ICC/WI)	2000-2017	195	192	7	6341	152*	34.27	7270	87.22	15	30	18	29.89

 

[sunilz]

Can u do the same for ICC WC+CT and away record for above players? This would give us far clear picture.

 

[ankitj]

I don't know if home vs. away is as much of a factor in limited over cricket. Not in last 10 years or so at least. Dhawan and Rohit for example who suck at tests overseas still have very strong records in limited overs.

WC+CT - I can check. Be warned that WC stats could be padded because you meet lot of minnows in WC.

 

[stephen]

ground sizes are more important in ODI cricket than pitch characteristics.

 

[Victor Ian]

ground sizes are more important in ODI cricket than pitch characteristics.

This. Somewhere back there it was figured that Australian grounds cost batsmen 8 runs off their averages, and that would also be at a lesser strike rate due to less boundaries.
Add 8 to Gilchrist's average and whatever the amount is to his strike rate and then see how the appreciation goes.


Add in his wicket keeping - which is far superior to his counterparts and, for me, he ****s it into the 2nd openers spot.

 

[sunilz]

This. Somewhere back there it was figured that Australian grounds cost batsmen 8 runs off their averages, and that would also be at a lesser strike rate due to less boundaries.
Add 8 to Gilchrist's average and whatever the amount is to his strike rate and then see how the appreciation goes.


Add in his wicket keeping - which is far superior to his counterparts and, for me, he ****s it into the 2nd openers spot.

Considering that Gilchrist's overseas average is nearly same as his home average. This logic won't exactly work.

 

[Victor Ian]

Considering that Gilchrist's overseas average is nearly same as his home average. This logic won't exactly work.

The logic is not based upon one player. It is for all games. This just shows it does work. Most players home records are superior, more so when Gilly played.

 

[srbhkshk]

This. Somewhere back there it was figured that Australian grounds cost batsmen 8 runs off their averages, and that would also be at a lesser strike rate due to less boundaries.
Add 8 to Gilchrist's average and whatever the amount is to his strike rate and then see how the appreciation goes.


Add in his wicket keeping - which is far superior to his counterparts and, for me, he ****s it into the 2nd openers spot.

The overall ODI rate(1-7 position) is 31.38 @ 74.39.

Australia is 30.07 @ 71.01.

You can add 1 to Gilly's average and 3 to SR, not 8 that's ridiculous, and that's if he played all games in Australia...

 

[ankitj]

The overall ODI rate(1-7 position) is 31.38 @ 74.39.

Australia is 30.07 @ 71.01.

You can add 1 to Gilly's average and 3 to SR, not 8 that's ridiculous, and that's if he played all games in Australia...

Haha. Good job calling out the <insert a good word>

 

[stephen]

The logic is not based upon one player. It is for all games. This just shows it does work. Most players home records are superior, more so when Gilly played.

Tendulkar - Home 48, Away 37.
Lara - Home: 44, Away 38.
Kallis - Home 47, Away: 41.
Sangakkara - Home 41, Away 43.

Ponting - Home: ave 39, Away: ave 45.
Symonds - Home 29, Away 43.
Hussey - Home 47, Away 51.
Hayden - Home 39, Away 43.

These were the first four non-Australian batsmen and first four Australian batsmen of Gilchrist's era that came to mind. Sangakkara is the only non-Australian batsman who averaged more away than at home. But Tendulkar, Lara and Kallis all averaged significantly better at home than away. And all of Gilchrist's contemporaries in the Australian setup averaged more away than at home.

I didn't realise that the discrepancy was that bad, but even the "home track bully" Hayden averaged significantly more away than he did at home in ODI cricket.

Though this isn't taking into account neutral venues.

I guess it goes to show that playing in Australia as an ODI batsman isn't as easy as it is in other, smaller venues. The MCG, Gabba, SCG and Adelaide Oval all have quite large boundaries on at least one axis (the AO has small square boundaries but long straight boundaries) which gives something for the fielding team to work with when trying to cut off the 4s and 6s.

So yes, Gilchrist's average is almost exactly 36 and Dhoni's average is a bit over 50, which is significant. But when you take into account the roles that they played in their respective teams and the conditions in which they played, the gap between the two is nowhere near as large as it looks on paper (for the record, Dhoni's home and away is 55 and 49).

 

[stephen]

Another way of looking at it:

Team records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...mber=1;orderby=won;template=results;type=team

The first link is averages of matches played at the 6 major venues in Australia, the second is averages of matches played from the big 7 nations plus the UAE.

Australia average more per wicket overseas than at home.

South Africa are the only nation to average over 30 in Australia (min 10 matches).

Outside Australia Sri Lanka and New Zealand are the only top sides to average less than 30.

 

[stephen]

And if you take Australia out of the results of both of those filters, the overall aggregate average for all teams playing at Australia's big 6 venues - 27. In the other big countries - 31.

So there you are. The larger boundary effect for teams touring Australia is a batting average difference of 4. Australian averages go up by 3 batting overseas.

 

[srbhkshk]

And if you take Australia out of the results of both of those filters, the overall aggregate average for all teams playing at Australia's big 6 venues - 27. In the other big countries - 31.

So there you are. The larger boundary effect for teams touring Australia is a batting average difference of 4. Australian averages go up by 3 batting overseas.

Australia has had a better bowling attack for most of the ODI history compared to other teams.

 

[sunilz]

Don't disagree with u , however would like to add 2 points

1. Generally against Australia at home in ODIs teams roll out flat tracks. Reason: Extremely superior quality AUS bowlers will bulldoze other team's batting on bowling friendly track.

2. Even in Aus against AUS , Dhoni averages more than Gilchrist and Tendulkar more than Ponting although not by much.
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

This means that if INDIA had bowling attack of AUS , Indian players too would have benefitted from playing on flat track overseas in ODI.

 

[sunilz]

And let's apply same logic in TEST

Average at home of Indian and Australian player
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

Overseas
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...n;team=2;team=6;template=results;type=batting

So Tendulkar and Dravid would be averaging 60 in test if they had been Australian like Steve smith