Hashim Amla- the most misleading odi stats ever

[StephenZA]

And let's apply same logic in TEST

So Tendulkar and Dravid would be averaging 60 in test if they had been Australian like Steve smith

Lets not bring logic into this....

 

[Niall]

I'm well aware of that.

My point was that stats can sometimes be misleading.

And anyone who thinks that the world t20 is even in the same league as the world cup is dreaming. It's a meaningless tournament in a format best played at the domestic level.

It might be meaningless in circles where test cricket is the most favored format, but the players and the fans most certainly care about it.

You'd be a brave man to tell Mahela or Kumar that there world cup win was meaningless. The likes of De Villiers and Amla and many players who have not lifted a trophy would consider winning it a highlight of there career.

 

[Daemon]

lets add 8 to Gilchrist's average lmao

that would make him the greatest odi batsman ever

behave yourselves

 

[stephen]

Don't disagree with u , however would like to add 2 points

1. Generally against Australia at home in ODIs teams roll out flat tracks. Reason: Extremely superior quality AUS bowlers will bulldoze other team's batting on bowling friendly track.

2. Even in Aus against AUS , Dhoni averages more than Gilchrist and Tendulkar more than Ponting although not by much.
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

This means that if INDIA had bowling attack of AUS , Indian players too would have benefitted from playing on flat track overseas in ODI.

And let's apply same logic in TEST

Average at home of Indian and Australian player
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

Overseas
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

So Tendulkar and Dravid would be averaging 60 in test if they had been Australian like Steve smith

I think you missed my point entirely. I'm not looking at individuals (that's why I initially looked at 8 batsmen and then looked at all batsmen from top 8 nations). I'm not even sure what you're arguing.

There is a measurable difference in batting averages between sides playing in Australia vs sides playing everywhere else in the world. This is across all batsmen and all eras.

The effect of that is (on average) worth about 4 runs per wicket, ignoring the statistics of Australian batsmen (who average roughly 3 more on average when playing overseas).

Given that Australian batsmen have higher averages overseas and non-Australian batsmen have worse averages in Australia, one must conclude that in ODI cricket, batting in Australia results in lower batting averages, regardless of opposition.

At best you could say that this suggests Gilchrist might have a career average two to four runs higher, had he played the majority of his cricket outside Australia. It's a measurable difference, but it's not eight.

 

[StephenZA]

lets add 8 to Gilchrist's average lmao

that would make him the greatest odi batsman ever

behave yourselves

Makes logical sense... if you add arbitrary numbers to the stats of the players you think are the best then you can always say they are the best.

 

[stephen]

It might be meaningless in circles where test cricket is the most favored format, but the players and the fans most certainly care about it.

You'd be a brave man to tell Mahela or Kumar that there world cup win was meaningless. The likes of De Villiers and Amla and many players who have not lifted a trophy would consider winning it a highlight of there career.

For sure the players find it meaningful - it's an accomplishment for them in their chosen career. It just has little meaning since T20 cricket is such a crapshot at the highest levels. The higher you go the less skill plays a part in the results. It's an ideal domestic format and that's about it.

 

[stephen]

Australia has had a better bowling attack for most of the ODI history compared to other teams.

How does that explain the three run differential between Australia's home and away averages? Surely if Australia's bowling attack was the sole explanation we'd see their batting averages drop overseas instead of going up.

 

[srbhkshk]

How does that explain the three run differential between Australia's home and away averages? Surely if Australia's bowling attack was the sole explanation we'd see their batting averages drop overseas instead of going up.

I am not denying Australia is harder to bat in, the stats show that it is, my point is about the "let's increase his average by 8".

 

[akilana]

It might be meaningless in circles where test cricket is the most favored format, but the players and the fans most certainly care about it.

You'd be a brave man to tell Mahela or Kumar that there world cup win was meaningless. The likes of De Villiers and Amla and many players who have not lifted a trophy would consider winning it a highlight of there career.

Players and fans care about bilateral series too but it doesn’t mean they are the same as ODI WCs. Would you tell AB and Kohli that these bilateral series are meaningless? No. But we still don’t give them as much importance as we give WCs.

I don’t think AB and Amla would consider t20 WC as the most memorable in their career if they win. They would consider beating Australia in Asutralia thrice as the highlight.

Broad, KP et al won’t consider t20 WC as the highlight when they have so many memories from their test career to cherish.

However, an ODI WC would be one of the highlight for most great players like KP, Amla, Anderson, AB etc

 

[akilana]

How does that explain the three run differential between Australia's home and away averages? Surely if Australia's bowling attack was the sole explanation we'd see their batting averages drop overseas instead of going up.

It is silly. Most SAfrican players average better away in tests, would you add a few extra runs to their career?

 

[stephen]

It is silly. Most SAfrican players average better away in tests, would you add a few extra runs to their career?

The average South African wicket at home in tests has been worth 37 runs since readmission. Away that drops to 36. Given the closeness of those numbers you will see a number of South African batsmen with higher away averages but not all of them.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It might be meaningless in circles where test cricket is the most favored format, but the players and the fans most certainly care about it.

You'd be a brave man to tell Mahela or Kumar that there world cup win was meaningless. The likes of De Villiers and Amla and many players who have not lifted a trophy would consider winning it a highlight of there career.

Were they even around in 1996?

 

[Burgey]

I don't believe either of them were. So I am in fact prepared to say those players' WC win was meaningless.

 

[Victor Ian]

The overall ODI rate(1-7 position) is 31.38 @ 74.39.

Australia is 30.07 @ 71.01.

You can add 1 to Gilly's average and 3 to SR, not 8 that's ridiculous, and that's if he played all games in Australia...

Damned if I know what I was looking at before???

It doesn't matter anyway - I'm already set in my fandom. I'll just go searching for new goalposts.

 

[TheJediBrah]

People trying to adjust players' averages based on where they're from . . . jfc just stop

You're never going to find a perfect formula for players that take into account where/who/when/what they played cricket.

 

[Flem274*]

ground sizes are more important in ODI cricket than pitch characteristics.

which is why at eden park we often see sub 200 v sub 200 contests

lateral movement (air or off the pitch) and bounce are the most important controls on any cricket game in any format.

 

[stephen]

Here are top 20 openers (minimum 2000 runs as opener) ranked by Avg x SR:

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	Ave X SR/100
RG Sharma (INDIA)	2011-2018	81	80	6	3888	264	52.54	4257	91.33	12	18	3	47.98
S Dhawan (INDIA)	2010-2018	86	85	6	3660	137	46.32	3893	94.01	11	22	3	43.55
HM Amla (SA)	2008-2018	133	132	8	5993	154	48.33	6790	88.26	19	29	3	42.66
Q de Kock (SA)	2013-2018	72	72	4	3066	178	45.08	3273	93.67	12	10	2	42.23
SR Tendulkar (INDIA)	1994-2012	294	290	16	12840	200*	46.86	14666	87.54	35	67	12	41.02
DA Warner (AUS)	2009-2018	98	97	2	3948	179	41.55	4182	94.4	13	16	1	39.22
V Sehwag (ICC/INDIA)	2001-2013	181	179	5	6338	219	36.42	6120	103.56	13	28	11	37.72
MJ Guptill (NZ)	2009-2018	114	112	12	4283	237*	42.83	4874	87.87	10	22	11	37.63
SR Watson (AUS)	2006-2013	84	83	6	3257	161*	42.29	3732	87.27	6	21	7	36.91
TM Dilshan (SL)	2008-2016	162	159	11	6165	160*	41.65	7124	86.53	14	30	7	36.04
AC Gilchrist (AUS)	1998-2008	222	221	4	7670	154	35.34	7919	96.85	14	44	16	34.23
AJ Finch (AUS)	2013-2018	81	78	1	2931	135	38.06	3301	88.79	9	17	7	33.79
ML Hayden (AUS)	1993-2008	127	126	9	5052	181*	43.17	6506	77.65	10	27	6	33.52
IR Bell (ENG)	2006-2015	67	66	5	2544	141	41.7	3171	80.22	3	15	2	33.45
ST Jayasuriya (SL)	1993-2011	321	316	11	10427	189	34.18	11382	91.6	22	56	26	31.31
BB McCullum (NZ)	2002-2016	90	86	2	2606	131	31.02	2590	100.61	2	16	9	31.21
Saeed Anwar (PAK)	1989-2003	191	191	9	7023	194	38.58	8815	79.67	18	31	12	30.74
G Gambhir (INDIA)	2003-2013	82	79	4	2678	150	35.7	3111	86.08	6	16	8	30.73
ME Waugh (AUS)	1993-2002	129	129	8	4879	173	40.32	6407	76.15	11	28	9	30.70
CH Gayle (ICC/WI)	2000-2017	195	192	7	6341	152*	34.27	7270	87.22	15	30	18	29.89

Where did you get those figures from?

Mark Waugh averaged significantly more than 40.32 as opener.

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

Warner's looks wrong too:

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

It's not just the Aussies, Tendulkar's isn't right either:

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

I brought up Mark Waugh first because I think he's often vastly underrated as an ODI player and I was looking over his profile. He wasn't quite the bowler that Jayasuria was but he certainly was a decent part time option. He was probably a better batsman than Jaya though, even if he wasn't quite as much of a pioneer.

Looking over this list it's pretty disgusting how much easier batting has become in ODIs over the last ten years. It seems like every team has multiple 45+ averaging batsmen who strike at 90+. Back in my day only the best of the best (Viv) was able to maintain such a feat over the course of their career. And he was considered a freak.

 

[stephen]

which is why at eden park we often see sub 200 v sub 200 contests

lateral movement (air or off the pitch) and bounce are the most important controls on any cricket game in any format.

Fair enough Eden Park is the exception (the average total runs scored per ODI there is around 410, which is quite low). But in most of the world the size of the ground makes the biggest difference because curators prepare the deadest of dead tracks for ODI cricket. In some places atmospheric conditions change that. In most of the world, particularly the subcontinent and South Africa we see some massive totals being hit in large part due to the small boundaries.

 

[sunilz]

I think he has removed runs scored against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe

 

[TheJediBrah]

And let's apply same logic in TEST

Average at home of Indian and Australian player
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

Overseas
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

So Tendulkar and Dravid would be averaging 60 in test if they had been Australian like Steve smith

I like this logic. Using it on Australian bowlers we can say McGrath should average 17 or 18 if he didn't have to play mostly in Australia, and given how poor the record for spinners in Australia is then Warne actually averages like 10 . . .

Anyway doesn't Steve Smith average almost the same away as he does at home in Tests?