Hammond vs Kallis

[ankitj]

Plus Imran adds variety to bowling attack making it truly champion of all conditions.

 

[subshakerz]

I used to believe this (disclaimer: didn't read entire post, tldr). But I have switched to believing that batting all rounders fit better because with them you can play 5 bowlers without weakening batting. A bowling all rounder in a 5-man bowling attack weakens the batting (unless of course you also have a bowling all-rounder in the 5 man attack).

Depends entirely on the balance of the team.

Team A plays bowling AR in the top seven and sacrifices batting quality for a 5-man attack. Think Flintoff.

Team B plays bowling AR in the top seven but his batting quality is pretty commensurate with the standard of the rest of the middle order, hence no reduction in quality. Think Imran and Cairns.

Team C plays bowling AR in top seven but compensates for reduction in batting quality with a second or third bowling AR and longer batting lineup. Think Kohli's India and Cronje's SA.

Team D plays bowling AR at no.8 to have a stronger tail and keeps 4 specialist bowling options. Think Wasim, Vettori or Philander.

In reality, very few teams are Team A.

 

[subshakerz]

Plus Imran adds variety to bowling attack making it truly champion of all conditions.

Yup. Imran to me is the greatest exponent of reverse swing ever and hence edges Steyn on bowling alone for me as third seamer, regardless of the debate on their overall standing.

Steyn as a new ball bowled will be overshadowed by McGrath, Marshall and Hadlee.

 

[shortpitched713]

An interesting case study for CW is Imran vs Steyn.

In the head to head poll, Steyn win easily as bowlers alone.

But yet in ATG XI's Imran edges Steyn for a position, though the rest of the positions tend to trend towards specialist bowlers.

So generally, I believe that for the most part, and I could be wrong, that we prioritize an all rounder at 8, but specialists thereafter.

Dude, you wrote an essay. And even though I may have overstated my case a bit, through hyperbole, we basically ****ing agree. I then do put Hadlee at 9 also, but anyway he's an ATG specialist level bowler anyway.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

An interesting case study for CW is Imran vs Steyn.

In the head to head poll, Steyn win easily as bowlers alone.

But yet in ATG XI's Imran edges Steyn for a position, though the rest of the positions tend to trend towards specialist bowlers.

So generally, I believe that for the most part, and I could be wrong, that we prioritize an all rounder at 8, but specialists thereafter.

And Macko at 9 is pretty much a lock as a bowler alone who could also hold the bat.

 

[Prince EWS]

Har har, you did a thing, cool story bro.

You lost me at the whole 10-15% of overs bowled having anything to do with a batting WK batsman, though.

If you don't have a good WK batsman you probably need your fourth bowler to bat 7, in which case they need to bowl more.

Teams do want 5 bowlers and 7.5 batsmen IMO. Or maybe 4.5 bowlers and 7.25 batsmen.

There are lots of ways to achieve this. Batting allrounders and bowling allrounders both have their place in doing it, as do WKBs.

 

[kyear2]

As we should, because nobody wants a tail of 4 tailenders. That is such a strategic disadvantage that you cannot risk it.

To be fair Marshall and Warne wouldn't constitute tailenders, but I understand your point

 

[subshakerz]

To be fair Marshall and Warne wouldn't constitute tailenders, but I understand your point

Yeah I think for a normal team, having Marshall and Warne at eight and nine should suffice, but even then having a full fledge lower order bat like Imran up there would be very tempting. Not so for an ATG XI though where he becomes a lock.

 

[kyear2]

Depends entirely on the balance of the team.

Team A plays bowling AR in the top seven and sacrifices batting quality for a 5-man attack. Think Flintoff.

Team B plays bowling AR in the top seven but his batting quality is pretty commensurate with the standard of the rest of the middle order, hence no reduction in quality. Think Imran and Cairns.

Team C plays bowling AR in top seven but compensates for reduction in batting quality with a second or third bowling AR and longer batting lineup. Think Kohli's India and Cronje's SA.

Team D plays bowling AR at no.8 to have a stronger tail and keeps 4 specialist bowling options. Think Wasim, Vettori or Philander.

In reality, very few teams are Team A.

D does make the most sense

 

[kyear2]

Yeah I think for a normal team, having Marshall and Warne at eight and nine should suffice, but even then having a full fledge lower order bat like Imran up there would be very tempting. Not so for an ATG XI though where he becomes a lock.

I guess you mean for you, but he isn't a lock. Definitely pretty and more popular on CW for sure, but even here not a lock.

 

[subshakerz]

I guess you mean for you, but he isn't a lock. Definitely pretty and more popular on CW for sure, but even here not a lock.

Fair enough but many go for Hadlee at 8 though based on the same principle.

 

[subshakerz]

D does make the most sense

Why? Why not C for example?

And B also makes sense if your available batters aren't much better.

 

[kyear2]

Fair enough but many go for Hadlee at 8 though based on the same principle.

Acknowledged and agreed.

The attached isn't definitive by any means, but shows not everyone chooses either at 8.

 

[subshakerz]

Acknowledged and agreed.

The attached isn't definitive by any means, but shows not everyone chooses either at 8.
View attachment 37003

I think if you did a selection exercise for no.8 for ATG XI you would get different results.

 

[kyear2]

Why? Why not C for example?

And B also makes sense if your available batters aren't much better.

I don't like the idea of bowlers in the top 7, never have. Don't even like the idea of a Gilchrist at 6.

 

[kyear2]

I think if you did a selection exercise for no.8 for ATG XI you would get different results.

But why? Imran is literally there as an option, and the same amount of persons chose Marshall, Warne, Steyn, McGrath so obviously it's not a priority for everyone to have a specialist no. 8. Again, not saying it wouldn't have it's benefits, but not everyone prefers it

 

[Prince EWS]

But why? Imran is literally there as an option, and the same amount of persons chose Marshall, Warne, Steyn, McGrath so obviously it's not a priority for everyone to have a specialist no. 8. Again, not saying it wouldn't have it's benefits, but not everyone prefers it

You did specifically ask people to just select the best attack and ignore batting.

I liked your thread but you shouldn't use the results to make it something it wasn't.

 

[kyear2]

You did specifically ask people to just select the best attack and ignore batting.

I liked your thread but you shouldn't use the results to make it something it wasn't.

Ummmmm, I think I said most balanced and best attack. Will have to verify if I said to ignore batting, though it may well have been implied.

So agreed, possibly isn't the best sample to use.

 

[subshakerz]

But why? Imran is literally there as an option, and the same amount of persons chose Marshall, Warne, Steyn, McGrath so obviously it's not a priority for everyone to have a specialist no. 8. Again, not saying it wouldn't have it's benefits, but not everyone prefers it

Because when you focus on one position people will think differently.

 

[ankitj]

Depends entirely on the balance of the team.

Team A plays bowling AR in the top seven and sacrifices batting quality for a 5-man attack. Think Flintoff.

Team B plays bowling AR in the top seven but his batting quality is pretty commensurate with the standard of the rest of the middle order, hence no reduction in quality. Think Imran and Cairns.

Team C plays bowling AR in top seven but compensates for reduction in batting quality with a second or third bowling AR and longer batting lineup. Think Kohli's India and Cronje's SA.

Team D plays bowling AR at no.8 to have a stronger tail and keeps 4 specialist bowling options. Think Wasim, Vettori or Philander.

In reality, very few teams are Team A.

Yeah it depends on many factors in real world teams. I was talking about a more important scenario - writing names of XI on paper and staring at it.