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Hammond vs Kallis

Who was better?


  • Total voters
    53

shortpitched713

International Captain
Kallis isn't a nominal all-rounder and Imran is unquestionably a better player than Marshall.

Test cricket favors specialists. There should be an understanding that worldclass quality in one discipline cannot simply be overtaken by utility-level in a couple of disciplines. At the end of a day, there are only a few places for a batsman or bowler in a side, and once you occupy a position, you will be expected to contribute mainly by virtue of the position you occupy in the order. Being in the top six means your batting is more important and being in the last four means your bowling is more valuable.

Hence a guy like Chris Cairns won't be rated ahead of Lara.
At overall post, this always depends on team balance though. That's why for a while in the mid 2000s Australia were looking for an allrounder in spite of having the best specialist talent on both sides of bat and ball. I'll generally grant that specialists have more utility for most Test teams, however.

At bolded, I only stated that Kallis and Hadlee were both "nominal" allrounders to highlight the fact that they play very different roles on the team, but both carry the name "allrounder", is all. Generally I think Kallis is certainly a genuine all-rounder, but I don't make those definitions nor particularly care to.
 

Chrish

International Debutant
Seeing McGrath mentioned, is he the Kallis of bowling? Or hadllee. They are not exciting like Marshall waqar or Steyn, but just relentless accumulators. But with bowlers, we admire the brilliance of impeccable lines that you can rarely dominate. But not so with batsmen.
McGrath’s bowling > Kallis’ batting..
 

subshakerz

International Coach
At overall post, this always depends on team balance though. That's why for a while in the mid 2000s Australia were looking for an allrounder in spite of having the best specialist talent on both sides of bat and ball. I'll generally grant that specialists have more utility for most Test teams, however.

At bolded, I only stated that Kallis and Hadlee were both "nominal" allrounders to highlight the fact that they play very different roles on the team, but both carry the name "allrounder", is all. Generally I think Kallis is certainly a genuine all-rounder, but I don't make those definitions nor particularly care to.
I think the cases of 2000s Aussies and 80s WI shows that they had so many specialists with such quality that the need for an allrounder wasnt there.

In fact, my takeaway from the SA vs Australia series in the late 90s was that SA having so many bowling options and deeper batting strength compared to Australia couldnt make up for the quality difference in specialists.
 

Johan

U19 12th Man
Seeing McGrath mentioned, is he the Kallis of bowling? Or hadllee. They are not exciting like Marshall waqar or Steyn, but just relentless accumulators. But with bowlers, we admire the brilliance of impeccable lines that you can rarely dominate. But not so with batsmen.
Nah , it was a lot more terrifying to see McGrath bowl at your team's batting lineup then it was to watch Kallis bat against your team's bowling lineup , and McGrath was a lot more clutch ( look at his tourney record , even knockouts ) , it also felt Like McGrath's impact was Greater but thats just for me as a viewer , not something I can prove Statistically.

Kallis's bowling version imo would be Shaun Pollock.
 

shortpitched713

International Captain
At bolded, I only stated that Kallis and Hadlee were both "nominal" allrounders to highlight the fact that they play very different roles on the team, but both carry the name "allrounder", is all. Generally I think Kallis is certainly a genuine all-rounder, but I don't make those definitions nor particularly care to.
Can't believe I used to believe this. Frontline bowlers only as all-rounders please. For an all-time context especially, it's an extremely limited listing, imho. And Hadlee much more valuable as an "allrounder".
 

shortpitched713

International Captain
Why limit the category to frontline bowlers but not frontline batsmen?
It comes down to the fundamental dillema of Test selection, and why you're trying to place an all-rounder in there in the first place. Ideally a Test side of 11, will need 4-5 bowlers, and want to bat down to 8 or 9. A bowling all-rounder who is of front-line bowler quality directly addresses that dillema, wheras a batting all-rounder, even of specialist bat quality will not. I mean that's cool if an all-rounder could bat 6 and up, but if he's only coming in as bowling option 5, well that's something that can be accomplished by one or more part-timers among your specialist bats anyway, with not too much value lost. The all-rounder only really needs to bat at 7 or even 8, if you have a decent batting WK ( which in more recent modern Test cricket, let's face it you do, as specialist keepers aren't really a thing).

Think of it this way, if you could get 3 bowling all-rounders of roughly specialist quality vs 3 batting all-rounders of roughly specialist quality, which are you taking? Well, with the latter you've really gotten almost nowhere in building your attack. I guess you could pick 3 specialist bowlers very comfortably, and the all-rounders do the remaining bowling job in aggregate. Eh, that's not that much "extra" value. With 3 specialist quality bowling all-rounders you've almost rounded out your attack, and are guaranteed to bat deeper than most teams. Just tack on an "ace" specialist bowler and the attack is done ( 4 bowling all-rounders would be overkill, as you'd always want the extra bowling quality over batting at 11 or even 10 most likely ).
 
Last edited:

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
It comes down to the fundamental dillema of Test selection, and why you're trying to place an all-rounder in there in the first place. Ideally a Test side of 11, will need 4-5 bowlers, and want to bat down to 8 or 9. A bowling all-rounder who is of front-line bowler quality directly addresses that dillema, wheras a batting all-rounder, even of specialist bat quality will not. I mean that's cool if an all-rounder could bat 6 and up, but if he's only coming in as bowling option 5, well that's something that can be accomplished by one or more part-timers among your specialist bats anyway, with not too much value lost. The all-rounder only really needs to bat at 7 or even 8, if you have a decent batting WK ( which in more recent modern Test cricket, let's face it you do, as specialist keepers aren't really a thing).

Think of it this way, if you could get 3 bowling all-rounders of roughly specialist quality vs 3 batting all-rounders of roughly specialist quality, which are you taking? Well, with the latter you've really gotten almost nowhere in building your attack. I guess you could pick 3 specialist bowlers very comfortably, and the all-rounders do the remaining bowling job in aggregate. Eh, that's not that much "extra" value. With 3 specialist quality bowling all-rounders you've almost rounded out your attack, and are guaranteed to bat deeper than most teams. Just tack on an "ace" specialist bowler and the attack is done ( 4 bowling all-rounders would be overkill, as you'd always want the extra bowling quality over batting at 11 or even 10 most likely ).
You've phrased that argument in such a disingenuous way that none of it can be taken credibly.

First of all from your previous post, Sobers was a front line batsman and also a front line bowler of test quality and was either the 3rd or 4th option and often bowled the most overs in matches.

I will also say that Imran and Hadlee were legitimate top 10 ATG bowlers who could also bat, so yes there are bowlers who can more than fill the bowler all rounder role as well.

But if I follow your argument, and to quote you bowlers of "roughly specialist quality" who can bat would be better than having 3 specialist bowlers. So we're leaving the ATG realm and looking at fundamentals.
Why would I jeopardize the strength of my bowling attack, when it's the primary role, to add to the batting when you have 5 or 6 batsmen for whom that's their primary job. That's just idiotic, so contrary to your argument, it would be detrimental to the overall quality of the team. If you want to argue for one person at 8, then fine, but not down to 9 or 10.
And to your strawman argument that you would prefer 3 bowling AR to 3 batting AR, you don't need more than one batting AR, and that is also a role that has some importance to be able to be at the very minimum, assist with the rotation give the front line guys a rest without releasing any pressure or advantage gained. And if you do have to sacrifice for someone "roughly of specialist quality" it's one rather than 2 or 3, and even that would be doubtful.

I'm not downplaying the importance of having bowlers who are handy with the bat, but not trying to diminish the alternative either, nor for my "personal fetish" of having batsmen who are slip specialists either.

All are valuable and balance is important to any team, it's valuable to have a good fifth bowler, two or three good slip catchers and any runs the tail can produce are always useful, especially in support of a top order bat, but specialists, especially if they are clearly better than the alternatives, do have an important role. Because at the end of the day you have to choose the batmen most capable of scoring runs and the bowlers best suited to bowl out the opposition for the least amount of runs scored.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
It comes down to the fundamental dillema of Test selection, and why you're trying to place an all-rounder in there in the first place. Ideally a Test side of 11, will need 4-5 bowlers, and want to bat down to 8 or 9. A bowling all-rounder who is of front-line bowler quality directly addresses that dillema, wheras a batting all-rounder, even of specialist bat quality will not. I mean that's cool if an all-rounder could bat 6 and up, but if he's only coming in as bowling option 5, well that's something that can be accomplished by one or more part-timers among your specialist bats anyway, with not too much value lost. The all-rounder only really needs to bat at 7 or even 8, if you have a decent batting WK ( which in more recent modern Test cricket, let's face it you do, as specialist keepers aren't really a thing).
It comes down to the fundamental dillema of Test selection, and why you're trying to place an all-rounder in there in the first place. Ideally a Test side of 11, will need 5 bowlers, and want to bat down to 7 or 8. A batting all-rounder who is of front-line batsman quality directly addresses that dilemma, wheras a bowling all-rounder, even of specialist bowler quality will not. I mean that's cool if an all-rounder could bowl 20% of the overs and up, but if he's only coming in at #8, well that's something that can be accomplished by one or more handy tailenders among your specialist bowlers anyway, with not too much value lost. The all-rounder only really needs to bowl 10-15% of the overs, if you have a decent batting WK (which in more recent modern Test cricket, let's face it you do, as specialist keepers aren't really a thing).
 

shortpitched713

International Captain
It comes down to the fundamental dillema of Test selection, and why you're trying to place an all-rounder in there in the first place. Ideally a Test side of 11, will need 5 bowlers, and want to bat down to 7 or 8. A batting all-rounder who is of front-line batsman quality directly addresses that dilemma, wheras a bowling all-rounder, even of specialist bowler quality will not. I mean that's cool if an all-rounder could bowl 20% of the overs and up, but if he's only coming in at #8, well that's something that can be accomplished by one or more handy tailenders among your specialist bowlers anyway, with not too much value lost. The all-rounder only really needs to bowl 10-15% of the overs, if you have a decent batting WK (which in more recent modern Test cricket, let's face it you do, as specialist keepers aren't really a thing).
Har har, you did a thing, cool story bro.

You lost me at the whole 10-15% of overs bowled having anything to do with a batting WK batsman, though. 😆
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
An interesting case study for CW is Imran vs Steyn.

In the head to head poll, Steyn win easily as bowlers alone.

But yet in ATG XI's Imran edges Steyn for a position, though the rest of the positions tend to trend towards specialist bowlers.

So generally, I believe that for the most part, and I could be wrong, that we prioritize an all rounder at 8, but specialists thereafter.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
It comes down to the fundamental dillema of Test selection, and why you're trying to place an all-rounder in there in the first place. Ideally a Test side of 11, will need 4-5 bowlers, and want to bat down to 8 or 9. A bowling all-rounder who is of front-line bowler quality directly addresses that dillema, wheras a batting all-rounder, even of specialist bat quality will not. I mean that's cool if an all-rounder could bat 6 and up, but if he's only coming in as bowling option 5, well that's something that can be accomplished by one or more part-timers among your specialist bats anyway, with not too much value lost. The all-rounder only really needs to bat at 7 or even 8, if you have a decent batting WK ( which in more recent modern Test cricket, let's face it you do, as specialist keepers aren't really a thing).

Think of it this way, if you could get 3 bowling all-rounders of roughly specialist quality vs 3 batting all-rounders of roughly specialist quality, which are you taking? Well, with the latter you've really gotten almost nowhere in building your attack. I guess you could pick 3 specialist bowlers very comfortably, and the all-rounders do the remaining bowling job in aggregate. Eh, that's not that much "extra" value. With 3 specialist quality bowling all-rounders you've almost rounded out your attack, and are guaranteed to bat deeper than most teams. Just tack on an "ace" specialist bowler and the attack is done ( 4 bowling all-rounders would be overkill, as you'd always want the extra bowling quality over batting at 11 or even 10 most likely ).
I used to believe this (disclaimer: didn't read entire post, tldr). But I have switched to believing that batting all rounders fit better because with them you can play 5 bowlers without weakening batting. A bowling all rounder in a 5-man bowling attack weakens the batting (unless of course you also have a bowling all-rounder in the 5 man attack).
 

subshakerz

International Coach
An interesting case study for CW is Imran vs Steyn.

In the head to head poll, Steyn win easily as bowlers alone.

But yet in ATG XI's Imran edges Steyn for a position, though the rest of the positions tend to trend towards specialist bowlers.

So generally, I believe that for the most part, and I could be wrong, that we prioritize an all rounder at 8, but specialists thereafter.
As we should, because nobody wants a tail of 4 tailenders. That is such a strategic disadvantage that you cannot risk it.
 

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