Hadlee, Khan, Dev, Botham - Who was the best allrounder?

[Ikki]

Using that logic,Aus pitches are much better for batting than most others because Ricky has a much better average at home.

Um yes, they are, for him and the Aussies that grew up on those piches. That is completely consistent and logical.

No one said Pakistani pitches/conditions were easy for everyone, we are talking about the Pakistani bowlers themselves. They deserve no extra praise for excelling on pitches they grew up bowling on. The argument that those pitches were more difficult doesn't really apply to them as they did better at home. It applies usually to non-subcontinental bowlers for whom those conditions would have been alien.

 

[Ikki]

Stupid argument.

So I can argue Indian pitches support fast bowling than spin because Dale Steyn averages 20 here, while visiting spinners like Warne, Murali etc average in the 40s and 30s??

Fact is despite the unfavorable conditions, these 3 managed to do well.. that is a credit to their ability. You are taking exceptions and making them the rule, these 3 were exceptions, and exceptional at that as well.

Seriously, why do I not have you on ignore?

To give you a hint and, again, point out the obvious; not all fast bowlers are the same. Some seam and cut...others swing. I'll let you marinate on that for a second.

 

[Sir Alex]

Seriously, why do I not have you on ignore?

To give you a hint and, again, point out the obvious; not all fast bowlers are the same. Some seam and cut...others swing. I'll let you marinate on that for a second.

Can you post one without making stupid attacks at the poster?

Nothing to reply to in that.. post makes no sense whatsoever.

FTR there are very few if none, pace bowlers who stick to one discipline rigidly sunshine. Don't make yourselves seem like a haughty fool who resorts to personal attack the moment he is cornered.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Um yes, they are, for him and the Aussies that grew up on those piches. That is completely consistent and logical.

No one said Pakistani pitches were easy for everyone, we are talking about the Pakistani bowlers themselves. They deserve no extra praise for excelling on pitches they grew up bowling on. The argument that those pitches were more difficult doesn't really apply to them as they did better at home. It applies usually to non-subcontinental bowlers for whom those conditions would have been alien.

Well done on ignoring this :

Stop shifting your goalposts.You claimed that Imran was a tail-ender using the fact the had batted at 7 or below for the majority of his career.I showed you that Gilchrist did the same.Btw do you know that this tail-ender also batted at 3 in some of the matches in WC 1992 for Pak?




You are just clutching at straws as usual.Warne averages roughly the same home and away,around 26.

The point is that you claimed Murali had an advantage in that SL pitches are better for spin bowling....yet you refuse to acknowledge that Pak pitches are much harder to bowl on for fast bowlers than,say,Aus or SA pitches (some ATG great fast bowler averaged 100 in Pak ).

If Murali should get less credit for bowling on spin friendly pitches then Pak/SL/Ind fast bowlers should equally get extra credit for bowling on pitches that are graveyards for fast bowlers.
Otherwise it is nothing but double standards and you know it.

Also-

Mohammad Asif - home : 42.30, away : 20.70
Sarfaraz Nawaz - home : 33.17 away : 32.40

You really are clutching at straws.

 

[Sir Alex]

Well done on ignoring this :




Also-

Mohammad Asif - home : 42.30, away : 20.70
Sarfaraz Nawaz - home : 33.17 away : 32.40

You really are clutching at straws.

Nah you really don't understand the difference between seam & cut and swing bowlers. You've no right to argue against what Ikki said. Why I don't have you on ignore by now.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Nah you really don't understand the difference between seam & cut and swing bowlers. You've no right to argue against what Ikki said. Why I don't have you on ignore by now.

Careful now-you might get a warning for trolling and personally attacking posters

 

[Ikki]

Can you post one without making stupid attacks at the poster?

Nothing to reply to in that.. post makes no sense whatsoever.

FTR there are very few if none, pace bowlers who stick to one discipline rigidly sunshine. Don't make yourselves seem like a haughty fool who resorts to personal attack the moment he is cornered.

There are bowlers who are more good at one thing than another. Is it a coincidence that bowlers who in conditions like Pakistan's could swing the ball were usually successful? Not really, because it meant they didn't have to play off the dead pitches and weren't hindered. The aforementioned 3 Pakistani bowlers' primary weapon was swing. Probably because that is what best suited their conditions. So in their conditions they weren't hindered, they just excelled in another way.

Now flip that and look at Australia for example during most of the period these guys played. It was usually bouncy and fast; generally not swing-conducive (or as conducive as other places).

Look at all 3s' performances against Australia, at home and away:

Imran. Waqar. Wasim.

Coincidence again?

No. Different bowlers have different strengths and usually their strength is best supported at home, where they grew up with certain conditions. It's not always that way though, as when I was arguing for Warne; Australia isn't generally a place conducive for spin-bowling, and his away figures show that (also, the figures of every other spinner in Tests or otherwise kinda show that too).

I can't make it any simpler.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

There are bowlers who are more good at one thing than another. Is it a coincidence that bowlers who in conditions like Pakistan's could swing the ball were usually successful? Not really, because it meant they didn't have to play off the dead pitches and weren't hindered. The aforementioned 3 Pakistani bowlers' primary weapon was swing. Probably because that is what best suited their conditions. So in their conditions they weren't hindered, they just excelled in another way.

Now flip that and look at Australia for example during most of the period these guys played. It was usually bouncy and fast; generally not swing-conducive (or as conducive as other places).

Look at all 3s' performances against Australia, at home and away:

Imran. Waqar. Wasim.

Coincidence again?

No. Different bowlers have different strengths and usually their strength is best supported at home, where they grew up with certain conditions. It's not always that way though, as when I was arguing for Warne; Australia isn't generally a place conducive for spin-bowling, and his away figures show that (also, the figures of every other spinner in Tests or otherwise kinda show that too).

I can't make it any simpler.

No they don't.He averaged roughly the same home and away.


Btw from your stats :

Wasim vs Aus

Home : 30.14
Away : 24.05

You were saying?You just owned yourself

 

[vcs]

LOL at these Ikki-Sir Alex-Avada Kedavra arguments. I'm sure you all end up confused which side you are arguing for.

 

[Ikki]

Well done on ignoring this :

Also-

Mohammad Asif - home : 42.30, away : 20.70
Sarfaraz Nawaz - home : 33.17 away : 32.40

You really are clutching at straws.

Wrong, Warne averages 24.61 away from Aus and 26.39 in Aus. Also, since you left it out (probably on purpose) Warne strikes at 60.8 balls per wicket in Aus and 54.7 outside. So an improvement of almost 2 runs and 6 balls difference between his home and away record across a 145 test match career.

Also, it's become apparent you can't read:

Should have addressed this also.

Apart from Sarfaraz, the other Pakistani pacemen (Wasim, Waqar and Imran) did much better at home than they did away. That's the best argument you can give against giving them extra praise for bowling on home conditions. That is what they were suited to bowling and it yielded the best results for them.

Ironically, both Sarfaraz and Asif were more seamers than swingers. That probably goes some way in explaining why they didn't do near as well as their other countrymen at home. Of course, it's still early days for Asif.

But again, you gotta laugh...I'm somehow clumsy with stats and you cite two bowlers where one's figures are almost identical home and away (which still shows he wasn't hindered much) and the other has only played 20 tests - only 4 of them at home.

No they don't.He averaged roughly the same home and away.


Btw from your stats :

Wasim vs Aus

Home : 30.14
Away : 24.05

You were saying?You just owned yourself

And Imran and Waqar? Did I own myself again?

Even then, it has 1 series were Wasim did awesome and another where he did poorly. Great sample...but I guess 4 games is enough for you..as you showed with Asif.

 

[Sir Alex]

Ironically, both Sarfaraz and Asif were more seamers than swingers. .

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Wrong, Warne averages 24.61 away from Aus and 26.39 in Aus. Also, since you left it out (probably on purpose) Warne strikes at 60.8 balls per wicket in Aus and 54.7 outside. So an improvement of almost 2 runs and 6 balls difference between his home and away record across a 145 test match career. .

Ikki at his deceptive best.

Warne averages 26.30 at home and 25.50 away,both of which can be rounded off to 26.00.I see what you are doing,using "away from Aus" to include neutral tests.

Ironically, both Sarfaraz and Asif were more seamers than swingers. That probably goes some way in explaining why they didn't do near as well as their other countrymen at home. Of course, it's still early days for Asif.

But again, you gotta laugh...I'm somehow clumsy with stats and you cite two bowlers where one's figures are almost identical home and away (which still shows he wasn't hindered much) and the other has only played 20 tests - only 4 of them at home.

As are Wasim's,Akhtar's et all especially whhen you include neutral tests like you have done for Warne above.

Also, it's become apparent you can't read:.

And it's apparent that you are a liar.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

And Imran and Waqar? Did I own myself again?

Even then, it has 1 series were Wasim did awesome and another where he did poorly. Great sample...but I guess 4 games is enough for you..as you showed with Asif.

Are you serious?You def. wouldn't have put up Akram's stats if you had known.As for the sample,the stats are yours,not mine.What the hell are you talking about?And do you know what Waqar was injured when he played in Aus?Nah ignore it,it doesn't suit your argument.

 

[Ikki]

Ikki at his deceptive best.

Warne averages 26.30 at home and 25.50 away.I see what you are doing,using "away from Aus" to include neutral tests.

Yes, because the neutral tests were played outside of Australia - not on Australian pitches. There you go embarrassing yourself again.

Let's not forget the 6 point difference in SR.

As are Wasim's,Akhtar's et all especially whhen you include neutral tests like you have done for Warne above.

For all those stats I included the neutral tests. Just go check them out. You see...I'm actually consistent.

And if they show that there is basically no difference then that's points scored for my argument...not yours. You are saying they are bowling on pitches that are much harder...so they should be getting much better figures away. Again, where have you shown this? The only place you did was a 4 test sample from Asif.

And it's apparent that you are a liar.

What's humorous is that you quoted that post and you STILL missed it

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Ironically, both Sarfaraz and Asif were more seamers than swingers.

Do you know who was one of the first to reverse swing the ball?

 

[nightprowler10]

Seriously, why do I not have you on ignore?

Obviously, reading isn't your greatest strength.

Please cut out the insults, Ikki.

Also, everybody in this thread needs to take a less hostile tone with each other or else I'll be forced to close the thread and issue official warnings to all involved.

 

[Ikki]

Are you serious?You def. wouldn't have put up Akram's stats if you had known.As for the sample,the stats are yours,not mine.What the hell are you talking about?And do you know what Waqar was injured when he played in Aus?Nah ignore it,it doesn't suit your argument.

I put up all the stats because unlike you, I am open with the stats I use. I don't go building an argument on 4 tests

LOL, and the Waqar neutral tests...did you actually read them? His neutral figures are better than his home figures...you know what that means? It means if I removed them the discrepancy between his home and away figures is even more in favour towards home and my argument. You don't even know what you're arguing do you?

Here's the kicker, had I removed them you'd probably say I was biased and should be including them.

 

[Ikki]

Do you know who was one of the first to reverse swing the ball?

Yes, I do, but Sarfaraz was still more of a seamer. He wasn't the greatest user of reverse swing himself, but his 'pupils' were and it's them that made it more renown. In fact, ironically Bob Woolmer compared Asif to Sarfaraz because of the use of seam:

http://www.cricinfo.com/topperformer/content/story/277414.html

"He is a modern-day fast bowler based on the likes of [Shaun] Pollock and [Glenn] McGrath. He gives you control and has the ability to hit the seam and make the ball move both ways. In Pakistan terms he is more Sarfraz Nawaz than Imran Khan. He is both humble and confident and very determined. He hates to lose and backs himself. He said to me when he left Australia (after an unimpressive debut in January 2005), "Don't worry coach I will show you what I can do. Just wait."

---

Sorry NP, I'll try.

 

[Sir Alex]

Yes, I do, but Sarfaraz was still more of a seamer. He wasn't the greatest user of reverse swing himself, but his 'pupils' were and it's them that made it more renown. In fact, ironically Bob Woolmer compared Asif to Sarfaraz because of the use of seam:

Returning with venom | Cricket Features | Top Performer | Cricinfo.com


---

Sorry NP, I'll try.

Please Ikki...

Asif on himself

What do you typically look to do when you bowl?

When I began, I was able to swing the ball and my line was good, so people began comparing me to McGrath. Of course, I didn't mind that! It is an ability of mine, to be able to bowl a certain line and length. That's my strength and I just concentrate on that.

Do you look to bowl that unplayable, wicket-taking ball each time, or are you setting the batsman up?

I always have a game plan, looking specifically at one or two batsmen. I generally know what a certain batsman's weakness is, and then try to bowl in such a way that I can exploit that. If someone is weak against the inswinger, I'll make sure I don't give him any outswingers, and keep bringing the ball in to him. The main thing, as I said before, is line. I try to bowl the same thing to top-order batsmen and tailenders, and that's the wicket-taking ball. There are obviously variations and different tactics you have to use for different batsmen.

 

[Sir Alex]

Even in that link what Woolmer is saying is this :

"He is a modern-day fast bowler based on the likes of [Shaun] Pollock and [Glenn] McGrath. He gives you control and has the ability to hit the seam and make the ball move both ways. In Pakistan terms he is more Sarfraz Nawaz than Imran Khan. He is both humble and confident and very determined. He hates to lose and backs himself. He said to me when he left Australia (after an unimpressive debut in January 2005), "Don't worry coach I will show you what I can do. Just wait." - Bob Woolmer on Asif.

By no stretch of imagination, that means he is more of a seamer than a swing bowler.