Garry Sobers vs Imran Khan

[subshakerz]

A 40 averaging opening batsman in the 90's, the only legitimately great captain of note I've seen and one of the handful I've read about, and one of the greatest slip fielders of all time? Yes.

Wait I thought you didn't give points for captaincy in cricketer assessment? Now you do?

 

[subshakerz]

I've never seen him placed in the GOAT debate, he never makes AT XI's, his peer rating in the era isn't close to Marshall's or even Lillee's.

Numbers are there yes, but the rest of it has always been suspiciously lacking.

So just because of peer rating there is a gap between them big enough for us to ignore Hadlees batting?

 

[sayon basak]

Wait I thought you didn't give points for captaincy in cricketer assessment? Now you do?

Taylor is the only captain he rates. He has already said that.

 

[kyear2]

So just because of peer rating there is a gap between them big enough for us to ignore Hadlees batting?

My overall rating, yes.

You do realise that one's 6th and the other 7th.

What's the gap between Sachin and Kallis and or Hammond?

 

[Coronis]

It could very easily be argued that Kapil was better than Taylor on primary disciplines, 6 years longer career, much better away work, carried a weak lineup, home dominance regardless of pitches being negative to his bowling and so forth. You add another 30 run of consistent lower order output and the ability to support the innings of top batters and as far as I'm concerned, Kapil is clearly ahead. Taylor's tertiary pushes them close but the gap in secondary is too big.

In what world is this true?

 

[Johan]

In what world is this true?

The Earth we live on

 

[Coronis]

The Earth we live on

Somehow I don’t think 26/32 is better than 43

 

[kyear2]

Taylor is the only captain he rates. He has already said that.

Repeatedly and consistently.

Not Viv, not Lloyd, not Punter, Border, Waugh etc etc.

Think Jeb Bartlett said it best when he said, "post hoc, ergo Procter hoc" , or slightly less succinctly as Kimber said, most discussions about captaincy comes down to a masturbation circle. It's one of the most overrated aspects of the game.

Special mention can go to Jardine, but ultimately that was primarily one, even a big one, but one series.

Give me the on field strategist that changed games, but most of the time you're literally as good as your team.

None of this is remotely new.

 

[Johan]

Somehow I don’t think 26/32 is better than 43

Dev kicked in very strongly in Australia and The West Indies, Taylor away was very reliant around one game on one of the roadiest roads to ever road against Pakistan when the latter were missing Wasim, Waqar and Saqlain. Very good in England though. Overall, I'd generally take Dev's away record.

 

[subshakerz]

Repeatedly and consistently.

Not Viv, not Lloyd, not Punter, Border, Waugh etc etc.

Think Jeb Bartlett said it best when he said, "post hoc, ergo Procter hoc" , or slightly less succinctly as Kimber said, most discussions about captaincy comes down to a masturbation circle. It's one of the most overrated aspects of the game.

Special mention can go to Jardine, but ultimately that was primarily one, even a big one, but one series.

Give me the on field strategist that changed games, but most of the time you're literally as good as your team.

None of this is remotely new.

Yet in the case of Taylor you witnessed him impacting games as captain enough to rate him higher because of that.

Seems pretty illogical to deny that possibility of credit to all other captains in cricket history.

 

[kyear2]

Somehow I don’t think 26/32 is better than 43

And just to make sure we're on the same page, that's 26 batting average and 32 bowling average, not the other way round.

That's better than averaging 43 as an opening batsman in the 90's?

I don't see how.

 

[subshakerz]

And just to make sure we're on the same page, that's 26 batting average and 32 bowling average, not the other way round.

That's better than averaging 43 as an opening batsman in the 90's?

I don't see how.

32 with the ball and 26 with the bat yeah should be roughly commensurate with a 40 odd bat. Add in Kapil at home and he breezes over Taylor easy.

 

[Coronis]

For some clarity on their primary stats

Kapil 434 @ 29.64

Other pacers in his career 8278 @ 29.81
Other pacers in matches he played 1727 @ 33.13

Taylor 7525 @ 43.49

Other openers during his career 72146 @ 33.42
Other openers in matches he played 19506 @ 34.83

 

[subshakerz]

For some clarity on their primary stats

Kapil 434 @ 29.64

Other pacers in his career 8278 @ 29.81
Other pacers in matches he played 1727 @ 33.13

Taylor 7525 @ 43.49

Other openers during his career 72146 @ 33.42
Other openers in matches he played 19506 @ 34.83

Why just primary? Of course Taylor is a better bat than Kapil as a bowler.

 

[Johan]

I think Kapil in India was better than even Gavaskar in India

 

[Coronis]

Why just primary? Of course Taylor is a better bat than Kapil as a bowler.

You’d think… but there are some…

It could very easily be argued that Kapil was better than Taylor on primary disciplines

(that’s what I was responding to)

 

[capt_Luffy]

For some clarity on their primary stats

Kapil 434 @ 29.64

Other pacers in his career 8278 @ 29.81
Other pacers in matches he played 1727 @ 33.13

Taylor 7525 @ 43.49

Other openers during his career 72146 @ 33.42
Other openers in matches he played 19506 @ 34.83

Why just openers?

 

[Coronis]

Why just openers?

Why just pacers?

 

[kyear2]

32 with the ball and 26 with the bat yeah should be roughly commensurate with a 40 odd bat. Add in Kapil at home and he breezes over Taylor easy.

Nooo, what the hell.

Why just primary? Of course Taylor is a better bat than Kapil as a bowler.

He's a better bat than Kapil was a bowler.

In a team with McWarne he was a better slip than Kapil was a bat.

Everyone immediately jumped out with Kapil is easily and automatically better, but honestly and sincerely he wasn't.

One was an average fast bowler and a useful but inconsistent lower order bat.

One was a (well) above average opening batsman in one of the 2 toughest eras to do so, an AT top 10 slip, arguably the greatest to spin.

As I said, if I'm forced to choose either for an AT XI, or my current WI XI, there's no contest. You especially aren't replacing Imran with Dev.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Why just pacers?

Good, then include all batsmen and bowlers