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England players and selection discussion thread

cricketsavant

Cricket Spectator
The dust is slowly setting on a great test match, in a season of great tests. Actually I'm proud to say since 2018 England has probably hosted some of the best test cricket on the planet. Yet for all that, there are serious issues in this England side and serious questions around selection.

Question 1 - Jos Buttler and should he 9lay in future tests? He will off the back of this performance but really his keeping is below average and if England want to play a full time spinner, he needs to go. His batting is slightly better but a test average of 32 for someone who is essentially a full time bat is not good enough this needs to be addressed ASAP

Question 2 - Fast bowling. Broad has proven he probably has enough for another 2 or 3 seasons of cricket but what of Jimmy? As great as he is , is it worth it for England to play him in 1 or 2 tests a series, inhibiting the growth of younger swing bowlers to take his place. Woskes is already 31 and has had to battle for his place. How much longer can the young talented Curran be kept out?
And what of Archer and Woods. The former hasnt been his 2019 self all season so far. The latter is too injury probe and inconsistent but at least shows drive. Id persist with archer a bit longer with Archer but he has to up his game.
And what of the likes of Mehmood and Co, young bowlers in the English system, when will their time come?

Question 3 - The captain. Root is not good enough. There, I said it. His batting has also suffered as a result. Should Stokes take the mantle? I think so.
 

trundler

Hall of Fame Member
The dust is slowly setting on a great test match, in a season of great tests. Actually I'm proud to say since 2018 England has probably hosted some of the best test cricket on the planet. Yet for all that, there are serious issues in this England side and serious questions around selection.

Question 1 - Jos Buttler and should he 9lay in future tests? He will off the back of this performance but really his keeping is below average and if England want to play a full time spinner, he needs to go. His batting is slightly better but a test average of 32 for someone who is essentially a full time bat is not good enough this needs to be addressed ASAP

Question 2 - Fast bowling. Broad has proven he probably has enough for another 2 or 3 seasons of cricket but what of Jimmy? As great as he is , is it worth it for England to play him in 1 or 2 tests a series, inhibiting the growth of younger swing bowlers to take his place. Woskes is already 31 and has had to battle for his place. How much longer can the young talented Curran be kept out?
And what of Archer and Woods. The former hasnt been his 2019 self all season so far. The latter is too injury probe and inconsistent but at least shows drive. Id persist with archer a bit longer with Archer but he has to up his game.
And what of the likes of Mehmood and Co, young bowlers in the English system, when will their time come?

Question 3 - The captain. Root is not good enough. There, I said it. His batting has also suffered as a result. Should Stokes take the mantle? I think so.
Ok
 

Bijed

International Debutant
The dust is slowly setting on a great test match, in a season of great tests. Actually I'm proud to say since 2018 England has probably hosted some of the best test cricket on the planet. Yet for all that, there are serious issues in this England side and serious questions around selection.

Question 1 - Jos Buttler and should he 9lay in future tests? He will off the back of this performance but really his keeping is below average and if England want to play a full time spinner, he needs to go. His batting is slightly better but a test average of 32 for someone who is essentially a full time bat is not good enough this needs to be addressed ASAP

Question 2 - Fast bowling. Broad has proven he probably has enough for another 2 or 3 seasons of cricket but what of Jimmy? As great as he is , is it worth it for England to play him in 1 or 2 tests a series, inhibiting the growth of younger swing bowlers to take his place. Woskes is already 31 and has had to battle for his place. How much longer can the young talented Curran be kept out?
And what of Archer and Woods. The former hasnt been his 2019 self all season so far. The latter is too injury probe and inconsistent but at least shows drive. Id persist with archer a bit longer with Archer but he has to up his game.
And what of the likes of Mehmood and Co, young bowlers in the English system, when will their time come?

Question 3 - The captain. Root is not good enough. There, I said it. His batting has also suffered as a result. Should Stokes take the mantle? I think so.
1. I wouldn't personally describe Buttler's keeping as below average - he's not incredible but he's generally fine. This match was obiviously bad but I've got no particular worries that it's a sign of what to expect from him for the rest of the series. Until 3 tests (sort of 2, but the 2nd WI test didn't really tell us anything either way) ago I was fed up enough with his recent poor batting to want him dropped from Foakes, but I'm happy for him to stay after his improved batting since then. I do think Foakes is a better keeper and probably a better bat overall, but he hasn't been in good form recently so between that and current lack of match practice I don't think the swap is worth it now that Buttler's doing better. If Stokes is fit to bowl again, presumably Buttler will be at 7, and his batting overall is fine for a #7.

2. I'm not sure of Jimmy at the moment. I'm not going to say he's finished (which I've done before and ended up looking silly). I think his current meh-ness is due to his age and circumstances combining to slow his return from injury. In general, if he does get back to near his best, I'm absolutely fine with him only playing in 1 or 2 tests a series if that's how things have to be done from a fitness management POV. I appreciate the need to give the next generation a chance but you pick a team to win each and every test imo and that means selecting Jimmy if he's anywhere vaguely near his best.

Curran will always be in contention for home tests (even though I remain a bit unconvinced by him) and I imagine Jimmy will retiring anyway before too long (I know he's said he wants to do the next away Ashes but that seems pretty unlikely imo) and Curran will probably get a pretty extended run at that point.

Archer at this point just needs more test experience imo. He's shown already that he can absolutely deliver at this level and I'd be more inclined to stick with him whilst he learns than I would with Curran tbh.

Wood in England should just be a no-go at this point. I think his stats are a bit blown out by him being selected when he shouldn't have been, but he's never had a particularly huge impact on any tests he's played at home, happy to keep him on the radar for away tests though.

3. I think what Howe said in the tour thread is largely correct, in that there does seem to be a bit of a hindsighty pile-on on his captaincy sometimes. That said, I don't think he's especially good tactically regardless, so if we could shift the captaincy to someone else (would opt for Burns over Stokes personally) it would be worth it if his batting improved as a a result
 

Neptune

State Regular
Has Burns really established his place in the side yet though? He had a bit of a nightmare (although he was not the only one) last test match.
 

Lillian Thomson

International Coach
Stokes being out complicates it a bit. Root is a terrible captain but going nowhere. Buttler has been bordering on adequate by the poor standards required today until the last match so probably continues for the series.
I don’t like Archer and haven’t since his wretched performance at Old Trafford when the Ashes were still up for grabs. I don’t care about age as such, but physically Anderson and Broad might not be able to play another two Tests so close together.
 

flibbertyjibber

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Would imagine Curran will play next test now to bolster the batting and Wood to replace Archer for pace. Crawley presumably comes in for Stokes and Root drops to 4.
 

Bijed

International Debutant
Has Burns really established his place in the side yet though? He had a bit of a nightmare (although he was not the only one) last test match.
Yeah, he's not as established as you'd typically expect from a captain but equally, I doubt he's going anywhere anytime especially soon, just because of lack of alternatives (although Crawley I suppose), plus he's doing alright on the whole.

Tbh I'm more concered about getting Root's batting back (not that this would guarantee it of course) so would be willing to accept a still-imperfect choice of captain as a trade-off.
 

Red_Ink_Squid

State Vice-Captain
Would imagine Curran will play next test now to bolster the batting and Wood to replace Archer for pace. Crawley presumably comes in for Stokes and Root drops to 4.
Yeah these are the changes I'd be looking at for the next Test.

Buttler should get the rest of the current series but Flakes should be ahead of him when we travel to the subcontinent.

I wouldn't say Root is a great captain but he's 'good enough' by virtue of being the best available choice. I don't think taking the captaincy off him would suddenly make him bat like it was 2014 again.
 

trundler

Hall of Fame Member
Every good Root cameo of late has been a fast paced innings which in isolation isn't a criticism but it does show that he isn't batting long like he used to. That's probably got more to do with the one day stuff than captaincy. Batting out of position mustn't help tho.
 

cricketsavant

Cricket Spectator
1. I wouldn't personally describe Buttler's keeping as below average - he's not incredible but he's generally fine. This match was obiviously bad but I've got no particular worries that it's a sign of what to expect from him for the rest of the series. Until 3 tests (sort of 2, but the 2nd WI test didn't really tell us anything either way) ago I was fed up enough with his recent poor batting to want him dropped from Foakes, but I'm happy for him to stay after his improved batting since then. I do think Foakes is a better keeper and probably a better bat overall, but he hasn't been in good form recently so between that and current lack of match practice I don't think the swap is worth it now that Buttler's doing better. If Stokes is fit to bowl again, presumably Buttler will be at 7, and his batting overall is fine for a #7.

There was a gap of 15 innings between Buttler and a 50 or more score and 8 of those innings was less than 30. That is abysmal batting. In terms of keeping, he is below average, an average keeper would be someone like Paine, who is very much on the wrong side of 30 but still more athletic and safe than Buttler. Compare him to more athletic keepers such as Rizwan and you see that England have a deep problem here, especially one made worse if they really want a full time spinner. Keeping to spinners is much harder.

2. I'm not sure of Jimmy at the moment. I'm not going to say he's finished (which I've done before and ended up looking silly). I think his current meh-ness is due to his age and circumstances combining to slow his return from injury. In general, if he does get back to near his best, I'm absolutely fine with him only playing in 1 or 2 tests a series if that's how things have to be done from a fitness management POV. I appreciate the need to give the next generation a chance but you pick a team to win each and every test imo and that means selecting Jimmy if he's anywhere vaguely near his best.

I think Jimmy probably has enough in him to last till the next home summer, minimum BUT keeping don't like the idea of keeping him around in expense of a young, fit, swing bowler, whoever that may be. Especially as Jimmy still has the shadow of away tests hanging over him. He still averages a whopping 33 away from home and hasn't been fit enough or maybe good enough, to play more than 7 tests away (terrific in SA but it was a rarity compared to the rest of his work). Why not bleed in someone new? Again, I repeat, I think he is good enough to carry on but that may not mean he should at the expense of someone potentially younger and better.

Curran will always be in contention for home tests (even though I remain a bit unconvinced by him) and I imagine Jimmy will retiring anyway before too long (I know he's said he wants to do the next away Ashes but that seems pretty unlikely imo) and Curran will probably get a pretty extended run at that point.

Archer at this point just needs more test experience imo. He's shown already that he can absolutely deliver at this level and I'd be more inclined to stick with him whilst he learns than I would with Curran tbh.

I'd stick with Archer too but his attitude needs a change. He seems kind of moody now that he has solidified his test reputation against Smith.

Wood in England should just be a no-go at this point. I think his stats are a bit blown out by him being selected when he shouldn't have been, but he's never had a particularly huge impact on any tests he's played at home, happy to keep him on the radar for away tests though.

Strange....he had 20 wickets in his first home run, injuries and being dropped have hurt him and his home come back may not be great but he has shown he can perform here and should be giving backing if Archer isn't good enough or motivated enough.

3. I think what Howe said in the tour thread is largely correct, in that there does seem to be a bit of a hindsighty pile-on on his captaincy sometimes. That said, I don't think he's especially good tactically regardless, so if we could shift the captaincy to someone else (would opt for Burns over Stokes personally) it would be worth it if his batting improved as a a result

Many have said Root isnt a good enough captain for a while. I remember discussing with friends post Cook, would Root be an inventive captain or a defensive, often reactive captain like Cook. Sadly he has been too much like Cook, which is weird as Root's peak batting was so inventive and attacking and going for the kill. I'd rather Root the batsman than the captain.
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wpdavid

International Coach
Would imagine Curran will play next test now to bolster the batting and Wood to replace Archer for pace. Crawley presumably comes in for Stokes and Root drops to 4.

I think so, and the discussion about whether Curran bats ahead of Woakes has been put to bed by yesterday's innings. If Anderson is rested, then it comes down to Wood vs Archer for the final bowling slot. Leach for Bess probably won't be considered due to the number of other changes.
 

Gremlin

School Boy/Girl Captain
The sad withdrawal of Stokes does leave a decision for England to make about the balance of the side for the next test match.

The last two matches they have gone with five bowlers so you would expect them to go with a similar strategy on Thursday, for me Anderson and Archer are rested. This means keeping Buttler and Woakes at 6 & 7, both a place too high in my view but England have got away with it over the last two outings. I am sure Crawley will come back in at 3 with Root and Pope making up the other batting spots. Bess, Curran Broad and Wood complete the batting.

However, if they decide to go with four front line bowlers and Root as back up, perhaps Leach comes in for Bess as both variety and more likely to be able to hold an end if required allowing the other bowlers time to be rested. But who to play at 6? Lawrence has been the back up bat so far but is it the right option? Or has Buttler done enough to bat at 6 and bring in Foakes?
 

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